tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post5563862876758296923..comments2024-03-27T12:58:00.592-07:00Comments on Snowbrush: Talks with PaulineSnowbrushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-77388245794047862382016-04-21T09:02:57.505-07:002016-04-21T09:02:57.505-07:00“I'd be wary of Pauline. She's a pro and d...“I'd be wary of Pauline. She's a pro and does this for a living.”<br /><br />You wrote something similar about Father Brent. I think you’re putting me on, although it might suit a lot of clergy if they could have as much power as you ascribe to them. As it is, I think you could sit an atheist whose opinions are well-considered down for a solid week with 100 of the best preachers and theologians on earth, and that person would come away still an atheist. There simply aren’t that many arguments for God, and once you know them all, and have rejected them all, they have no power in your life.<br /><br />“God presence is everywhere though you might have personally decided not to pay attention to it.”<br /><br />Either you didn’t read this post very well, or I didn’t write it very well, because I know that, like my Indian reader, Joseph, your knowledge of English exceeds that of most Americans.<br /><br />“Allah does not force anyone to submit to Him…Anybody is always free to make his or her own choice.”<br /><br />Then why is it that nearly all people choose the religion that they grew up with?<br /><br />“How are you doing sir?”<br /><br />Well, sir, pain woke me up, or otherwise, I would still be in bed. Here, my Nigerian friend, it is seldom that anyone is referred to as sir. I come from the part of the U.S. known as the Deep South, and I’ve been away from there for 30 years, so things might have changed, but that has long been a part of the country where such words of respect have always been heard. I consider this admirable, but people from the South sometimes get mad fun of because of it. This is especially true of the children. Rather than sir or ma’am, I think a more appropriate word for those who ridicule people who are only trying to be polite would be asshole. Personally, I’m not fond of having some twenty year who doesn’t know me refer to me by my first name. I know that that no disrespect is intended, but having grown up differently, I’ll never hear it without feeling badly.<br /><br />“When I was 12 or so, like Alice in Wonderland, I could clearly see that all was just a pack of cards. No more reason to worry.”<br /><br />I find that this is a common attitude among atheists, and that what I experience sets me apart and makes me feel that I don’t belong in atheist groups (although much of my estate will go to the Freedom From Religion Foundation). All Consuming wrote that she was sorry that I had this “cross to bear,” and she was so right in that that is what it is. If there’s a hell, and a person has to have blind faith to avoid going there, I’m screwed, but if God does exist, and if, as many claim, he most especially exists in the search for him, then I’ll probably have a pretty decent in heaven, much to the chagrin of all those people in the cheaper seats.Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-50565613071558908952016-04-21T04:55:38.110-07:002016-04-21T04:55:38.110-07:00I do love reading these discussions. As a child, I...I do love reading these discussions. As a child, I fretted because everyone else seemed so secure in their knowledge of God. I just couldn't see it. And the Bible stories made absolutely no sense. When I was 12 or so, like Alice in Wonderland, I could clearly see that all was just a pack of cards. No more reason to worry. Like EC, I have no need to believe but plainly others do. Voltaire is right.<br /><br />Snow, you are only 60? I swear you were older.Sue in Italia/In the Land Of Cancerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11146373251097877539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-40244780801421209002016-04-21T01:50:16.679-07:002016-04-21T01:50:16.679-07:00Honestly, I would not have expected anything diffe...Honestly, I would not have expected anything different from all you wrote down sir. You seem to have been always expressive about your opinion when it comes to the issue of religion and God.<br /><br />God presence is everywhere though you might have personally decided not to pay attention to it. I supposed you don't need to see or feel the presence of an artist. Once you see his wonderful painting, you will surely know an artist exist.<br /><br />As to your claim on terrorism, religion differences and others. Those are not enough to deny the existence of God. Allah does not force anyone to submit to Him. He has layed out a clear path and then made it known to them the two ways (Heaven or Hell). Anybody is always free to make his or her own choice.<br /><br />How are you doing sir?Uthman Saheedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00932760816409731382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-21512848524907724082016-04-18T10:49:34.297-07:002016-04-18T10:49:34.297-07:00I guess we're all products of our upbringing t...I guess we're all products of our upbringing to a certain extent. While you had a father who sounds like an interesting guy to observe from a distance, he would have been a pretty poor ambassador for organized religion for anyone living with him. <br /><br />On the other hand, my dad and his brother got a little drunk one day and decided to have me and my cousins baptized. My uncle was a guard at the prison so to save a few bucks, they took us to the prison and had us baptized by the prison chaplain. So I was baptized in prison! From what I've heard, my dad and his brother weren't the most popular guys with their wives for a few days but I'm quite happy with it. <br /><br />I'd be wary of Pauline. She's a pro and does this for a living. Although she won't be able to recruit you to her coven but think in terms of Gladwell's Outliers. She's honing her skills and putting in her 10,000 hours of practice. These skills will be used to recruit less strong minded individuals who in turn may turn their children over to the mean man in the clouds.E. Rosewaterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03935662703893558945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-61258010276097302682016-04-18T09:52:21.231-07:002016-04-18T09:52:21.231-07:00“During my early adult years (I'm 60) I wonder...<br /><br />“During my early adult years (I'm 60) I wondered if I was somehow defective for being a non-believer. I assumed maybe I wasn't trying hard enough and if I kept an open mind that part of my brain would be activated and I would have a revelation.”<br /><br />Our histories mirror one another. I assumed that believers knew something that they weren’t telling me that would enable me to believe, but I didn’t want to confess my non-belief in order to ask them. As for what I wrote about leprechauns, many believers would say that the commonality of belief in God suggests that religion IS true, but I think it says a lot about the human brain, while saying nothing about God because if God were to communicate with us in such a way, surely he would share more than the mere fact of his existence while telling us nothing about the nature of that existence. I guess you’ve heard that atheists can be made to experience God in the laboratory, yet they don’t interpret the experience as proving that God exists, anymore that I interpret my very real experience of demons while on drugs as proving that demons exist.<br /><br />The following is from the blog of an atheist who lives in Turkey. I simply share it because I know almost nothing about the atheist situation in Turkey, so I enjoyed reading it, and thought that all of you would too: <br /><br />"When we say atheist, we mean mostly non-Islam, non-Judaism, non-Christianity."<br /><br />"You could not say even atheist 10 years ago in Turkey. Atheists always were afraid of saying their atheism. It is still so. That is why I do not search for support from them.<br /><br />"About 20-30.000 people know my atheism. I took death threats. No problem. I know my folk. I know when they will really kill me. Then I will go away of course.I have been writing about atheism in blogs for more than 5 years. I do not try make someone an atheist. Our law is fuzzy. I do not want to go to jail because of the crime of insulting Islam (yes, there is such a matter in our Penalty Law).<br /><br />"I have never entered into a mosque or a church or a sinagogue. It will remain as the same till my death. In fact I think not to be in my death ceremony by exterminating my death body.<br /><br />"So this a war between me and them. I like Sun Tzu. I use tactics and strategies of him. It works.<br /><br />"I am still here and alive. It works.”<br /><br />Here is the link to his blog, which he no longer maintains, although he still keeps another blog in his native language. Still if you want to offer encouragement, you can reach him through his old blog: http://turkeyandpolitics.blogspot.com/ , and maybe he will even honor you with an email.Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-65860767582652739452016-04-18T09:51:40.207-07:002016-04-18T09:51:40.207-07:00“Spirit: The vital principle or animating force wi...“Spirit: The vital principle or animating force within living things.”<br /><br />BBC, your use of the word spirit is one of things that I love about you, and it hurts me that people like KJ (who is a counselor, no less) dismiss you without taking the time to see you as possessing the depth that I find in you, there being so much about you to admire—I just wish we were neighbors. Schopenhauer called spirit the “will,” which was an unfortunate choice because he didn’t mean mean conscious decision making (as in having a “strong will” or a “weak will”) but rather what I think you mean in your use of the word spirit. To me, to say that we all possess an “animating force” is simply to say that we’re alive, whereas to you, I think, it means that there is something beyond ourselves that resides in us and cannot die, and while you don’t use the word God, “spirit” appears to suggest to you a property from which our existence comes but that is more than our existence. I will admit that IT FEELS SO to me as well, but I assume that the feeling doesn’t suggest an empowering presence that is greater than my earthly life, but rather an emotional inability to accept the fact that the day will come when I will be no more—profoundly no more, a memory at most, and even that memory will only exist in the minds of people who will themselves soon be totally and forevermore dead. Still, I do feel, I think, what you feel when you use the word spirit, and the feeling seems natural and inescapable to me whereas a belief in an anthropomorphic deity seems forced and contrived.<br /><br />“I knew a girl called Pauline. She was very pretty.”<br /><br />My uncle’s wife was named Pauline, and she was a witch, and I don’t mean in a good way. I think that woman would have tortured puppies for money, and I smile every time I think of her and recall that she’s dead. I had to get beyond that association in my friendship with this Pauline. I did so partly by reflecting that the only person I currently know who has my name is a lowlife with whom I’m embarrassed to share MY name. Truly, names mean nothing, at least as to whether a person is a saint or a demon.Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-67926568143302442532016-04-18T06:28:06.481-07:002016-04-18T06:28:06.481-07:00"I can but assume that, for whatever the reas..."I can but assume that, for whatever the reason, there is something different about the brains of believers versus those of nonbelievers because how else can people believe so strongly in that for which they cannot offer a smidgen of evidence, and which seems utterly absurd to people like myself. Rationally speaking, I cannot see the difference in believing in Jesus and believing in leprechauns. Sure, a lot more people believe in the former than in the latter, but this suggests nothing to me regarding the reality of the former".<br /><br />I am glad you wrote this because I have often thought the same thing. During my early adult years (I'm 60) I wondered if I was somehow defective for being a non-believer. I assumed maybe I wasn't trying hard enough and if I kept an open mind that part of my brain would be activated and I would have a revelation. So I continued to study and prayed for guidance.It seemed ironic to me that my forefathers had such strongly held doctrines which included two Methodist ministers, one Mennonite minister and one of the earlier Presidents of the LDS church and yet I could find nothing rational in the notion of a supreme incorporeal being. Whatever the "it" factor is, I just don't have it. Renaenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-33963105683150888302016-04-17T12:48:14.790-07:002016-04-17T12:48:14.790-07:00I knew a girl called Pauline. She was very pretty....I knew a girl called Pauline. She was very pretty.<br /><br />Other than that, no comment.PhilipHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06811831703263176415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-86519937453443977652016-04-17T12:45:34.944-07:002016-04-17T12:45:34.944-07:00“But I believe in your spirit and I’m not willing ...“But I believe in your spirit and I’m not willing to give any make believe god credit for the good things you do.”<br /><br />I have no idea what you mean by spirit or why the word is so important to you.<br /><br />You don't recognize the spirit in you? I guess you could use the word soul if you wish. <br />Spirit: The vital principle or animating force within living things.BBChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15323188240580782454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-54175057302212841622016-04-17T11:27:30.603-07:002016-04-17T11:27:30.603-07:00“Extreme pronouncements call for extreme proof”
I...“Extreme pronouncements call for extreme proof”<br /><br />I have no idea if this is true. I mean, how could you make a case for it? It seems to suggests that if something sounds obvious, little proof is necessary, but if something sounds fantastic, a lot of proof is necessary. This would be to take the common sense approach to truth, yet since common sense is so often wrong, how can a higher burden exist for some things than others? I’m not saying you’re wrong; I’m just saying that I don’t know if you’re right.<br /><br />“If there was ever a powerful god, he would not depend on PARCHMENT AND POPES to get his word out.”<br /><br />Or rely on blind faith in any form. Why would God speak to Pauline’s heart and not to mine? Is Pauline more sensitive to spiritual realities; does God prefer Pauline to me; is God still mad about the “unpardonable sin” thing; or is Pauline simply wired differently, not better, not worse, just differently? My bottomline for goodness has nothing to do with faith versus atheism, but how someone lives. I know atheists who could be hit by a truck for all I care, and I know theists who I love—and I know you do too.<br /><br />“Wasn't it Voltaire who said,"if God didn't exist it would be necessary to invent Him.”<br /><br />Yes, but he was an extremely vocal critic of religion and the religious mindset, so go figure. For example he wrote: “The truths of religion are never so well understood as by those who have lost the power of reasoning.” For more Voltaire quotes: (http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/voltaire.htm)<br /><br />“I have a great need to feel connected to something greater than myself. But I know I can't find what I need in organized religion.”<br /><br />Same here. Did you know that the number of Americans who list themselves as not being unaffiliated with any religion now rank a couple of points higher than the number who are Catholic (the number of each being within a couple of points of 25%)? Thanks to Islamic fundamentalists, and to religious politicians, and to religion-based discrimination, religion is losing respect in America. Unfortunately, atheists aren’t much respected either.<br /><br />“But I believe in your spirit and I’m not willing to give any make believe god credit for the good things you do.”<br /><br />I have no idea what you mean by spirit or why the word is so important to you.<br /><br />“I have never felt I needed someone else's permission to post what I post.”<br /><br />When I’m quoting what someone else has shared with me in private, I feel the need to get their permission to quote if I have the least doubt that they would care.<br /><br />“Lotta of joy and I have never gotten along for the most part but I damn sure agree with her comment here.”<br /><br />I’m NOT saying this about her IN THE LEAST, but your words about agreeing with someone you don't usually agree with did bring to mind the quip about even a dead clock being right twice a day.Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-87961295514429553522016-04-17T11:27:15.764-07:002016-04-17T11:27:15.764-07:00I got Pauline’s permission to print her words, so ...I got Pauline’s permission to print her words, so I’m putting this post up again with a few alterations. I’m pleased that those who said that I could revert it to a draft and not lose the comments were correct. This wasn’t always true.<br /><br />“when I started attending a Baptist church, which I did for 4 years, one of the pastors and his wife met with my Jewish parents to reassure them in whatever ways they could.”<br /><br />There are liberal Baptist denominations, but the Southern Baptist denomination is the largest Baptist denomination, and it’s far from liberal. Still, people being people, not every Southern Baptist preacher would shut from their lives everyone who didn’t believe as they did.<br /><br />“I so admire you for your honesty, your openness and your vulnerability. All of which add up to integrity.”<br /><br />I would just say that the only people who can hurt me are the people who I get close to, and this is why I can share deeply personal things with complete strangers without caring how they react. In this regard, blogging has made me much more courageous because I can do the same thing face-to-face. It’s so easy for me to truly not care if people react negatively unless I have to see them frequently, or I allow myself to love them. Then, they can indeed hurt me, but not by disagreeing with me or even by being incensed by me, but only by abandoning me.<br /><br />“The weakest argument I have ever heard is that you simply have to have faith.”<br /><br />I know. It amounts to saying that, in order to believe that religion is true, you first have to believe that religion is true.<br /><br />“The more convinced they are that they are right the less likely they'll be able to comprehend any argument that would dispute that belief.”<br /><br />But is this only commonly true, or is it universally true, and is it more true of some groups than of other groups? Several studies have shown that people not only ignore refuting evidence they believe more strongly in what they believed before they received refuting evidence. I think this is particularly true in regard to religion because it regards unfounded belief (“faith”) as a virtue. Remember Tertullian: “Credo absurdum pst.” Here’s a link for you: http://skepdic.com/backfireeffect.htmlSnowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-66838024372080045722016-04-16T08:37:01.949-07:002016-04-16T08:37:01.949-07:00“you can save a post as a draft and it keeps the c...“you can save a post as a draft and it keeps the comments”<br /><br />When I’ve done this, I’ve lost the comments. Maybe things have changed, but I’m afraid to risk it. I’ll try though because I can easily see why Pauline would be offended by this post.Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-6083492896362996452016-04-16T05:23:59.833-07:002016-04-16T05:23:59.833-07:00It's probably irrelevant now but you can save ...It's probably irrelevant now but you can save a post as a draft and it keeps the comments, then you can just re-post whenever you are ready (or keep it as a draft as a way of archiving)kyliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08964475783207438103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-85681976262062487472016-04-15T19:24:35.195-07:002016-04-15T19:24:35.195-07:00You could copy the comments (Since they show pheno...You could copy the comments (Since they show phenomenal intellect, don't lose them!). Show your post to Pauline, then reprint the comments if she's okay with it. If she's not, you can make an intellectual post with our comments! LOL lotta joyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12742978845913126675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-50508257423160210352016-04-15T17:40:05.053-07:002016-04-15T17:40:05.053-07:00"I have never felt I needed someone else'..."I have never felt I needed someone else's permission to post what I post."<br /><br />The rub is that what she wrote consisted of words that might have been written in confidence, although I seriously doubt it. Look at it this way, if what I share with a clergyperson is privileged information, if if I want honesty from such a person, why shouldn't I promise them the same confidentiality? I sure screwed it up on this occasion,but since I really don't think Pauline shared anything confidential, I going to go with it rather than lose all your comments, which would be what would happen if I pulled the post. If this is problem for her I'm just have to lie on my belly and make a blood oath to never do it again.Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-75333461280093031952016-04-15T17:28:28.564-07:002016-04-15T17:28:28.564-07:00Lotta of joy and I have never gotten along for the...Lotta of joy and I have never gotten along for the most part but I damn sure agree with her comment here. <br />BBChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15323188240580782454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-69774706936893423042016-04-15T17:22:17.101-07:002016-04-15T17:22:17.101-07:00"I hadn't meant to put this online yet be..."I hadn't meant to put this online yet because I hadn't run it by Pauline for permission,"<br /><br />That is a very interesting statement being as I have never felt I needed someone else's permission to post what I post. BBChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15323188240580782454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-76564120528964353152016-04-15T17:19:49.618-07:002016-04-15T17:19:49.618-07:00" I have a great need to feel connected to so..." I have a great need to feel connected to something greater than myself."<br /><br />That would of course be nature, but don't expect me to explain all that to you, we may not figure that out for another three hundred years even though it is pretty obvious but religions with brainwashing and collection plates keep side tracking everyone. BBChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15323188240580782454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-72568886099468509902016-04-15T17:07:29.846-07:002016-04-15T17:07:29.846-07:00I hope Pauline doesn't mind. This is a thought...I hope Pauline doesn't mind. This is a thoughtful and wonderfully written essay. Renaenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-19738053393477942542016-04-15T16:14:33.939-07:002016-04-15T16:14:33.939-07:00I hadn't meant to put this online yet because ...I hadn't meant to put this online yet because I hadn't run it by Pauline for permission, but having inadvertently put in online, if I take it off, I will lose the eight comments that have been made. Therefore, I'm going to leave it up until I hear from Pauline. Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-81263580774871842762016-04-15T16:10:43.246-07:002016-04-15T16:10:43.246-07:00Well, I have no respect for religions and make bel...Well, I have no respect for religions and make believe gods, and there are thousands of them. But I believe in your spirit and I’m not willing to give any make believe god credit for the good things you do. But I’ll damn sure thank your spirit.BBChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15323188240580782454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-29434667174722548472016-04-15T15:26:42.019-07:002016-04-15T15:26:42.019-07:00I think many of us have a need to believe God exis...I think many of us have a need to believe God exists but intellectually are unable to do so. Wasn't it Voltaire who said,"if God didn't exist it would be necessary to invent Him." nothing that I've been told or read about God makes sense yet I have a great need to feel connected to something greater than myself. But I know I can't find what I need in organized religion.stephen Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17659054447637207734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-57236911771346533072016-04-15T14:34:34.521-07:002016-04-15T14:34:34.521-07:00WOW. I told Joe "You've got to read Sno...WOW. I told Joe "You've got to read Snow - but on YOUR computer, not mine." I'm going to read this many more times. (And he's reading right now) I tried for 50 years to swallow what everyone told me was true. I yearned for their "peace that passes all understanding", and merely worked myself to death in the process. <br /><br />If I told people there was someone in our guestroom, and the door was locked, they'd have no reason to doubt me. It's an acceptable story. But if I told them I had a fire breathing unicorn in the guestroom, granting my every wish, no one would believe me and a few would demand proof. <br /><br />Extreme pronouncements call for extreme proof, and there is no proof that any one of over 13 gods ever existed. Few, if any, remain to worship Thor. But he was a powerful god of his time.<br /><br />If a child is not indoctrinated with bible stories that equate to fairy tales that children are prone to believe, then that child will not see proof or benefit of worshiping a "maybe" god when there is no justification he exists.<br /><br />Some people fall in line, follow, never question, and tell themselves there is a leader. In actuality they could be marching in a circle.<br /><br />I no longer fear - or must love - a cruel, heartless, misogynistic, genocidal, creation of the stone age. If there was ever a powerful god, he would not depend on PARCHMENT AND POPES to get his word out. He'd be ever vigilant, ever loving, and ever present. What scares me is the number of people who insist he is.lotta joyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12742978845913126675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-26558683596546983262016-04-15T13:50:33.846-07:002016-04-15T13:50:33.846-07:00People will believe what they want to believe. The...People will believe what they want to believe. The more convinced they are that they are right the less likely they'll be able to comprehend any argument that would dispute that belief. The weakest argument I have ever heard is that you simply have to have faith. Like you I tried desperately to believe. I wonder why some people seem to accept it so easily and yet I see religion as totally nonsensical.Someone once told me that it was the devil putting a block on me and that was why I couldn't accept the existence of god. Jeeez! <br /><br />Renaenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-50012116319455629242016-04-15T13:34:25.990-07:002016-04-15T13:34:25.990-07:00Thank you for this post.
As you know I grew up lar...Thank you for this post.<br />As you know I grew up largely without religion. My father, a German Jew, said it cost too much. Interestingly when he was planning his funeral he rang a Rabbi. <br />I am certainly an agnostic and more probably an atheist, but will freely admit I don't KNOW. <br />And unlike you, don't feel the need to believe either. <br />I so admire you for your honesty, your openness and your vulnerability. All of which add up to integrity.Elephant's Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06650565833097914052noreply@blogger.com