tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post7054928669192220933..comments2024-03-27T12:58:00.592-07:00Comments on Snowbrush: I get a letter from a prestigious MississippianSnowbrushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-9500688704195246202012-10-19T13:22:28.078-07:002012-10-19T13:22:28.078-07:00LOLLOLJoe Toddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07960458164425338569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-80642683367250285792012-10-12T20:09:27.809-07:002012-10-12T20:09:27.809-07:00Wow, Snowbush, You sure know how to stir up a hor...Wow, Snowbush, You sure know how to stir up a hornets' nest. <br /><br />I enjoyed your post, and, for the record, knew immediately you had written the initial letter. Hemingway said, "The most essential gift for a good writer is a built-in, shock-proof, shit detector." Somehow I have it ---and that is one thing that may have convinced me "religion is all bunk" (to quote Thomas Edison,) I have a friend who is a Mensan who was always passing on emails to me as if they were fact ---yet, I knew immediately, when they were urban myths/legends. I finally convinced him to check several myths/legends websites before passing those lies onto others. <br /><br />I bet that if we had websites checking up on word-of-mouth stories when the Bible was written, most Biblical stories would be judged as false, but there would still me thousands of people who would pass them on to all their friends, and most people would believe them ---because they wanted them to be true.<br /><br />Also enjoyed the banter and your responses.C Woodshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13053858627632648020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-85318912796509775692012-10-10T05:59:59.500-07:002012-10-10T05:59:59.500-07:00"And by rationality are you saved, through in..."And by rationality are you saved, through intellectualism, and that not from anyone else, it is the gift of your own mind, not of others, lest any man should think himself equal to you." (an atheist's version of Ephesians 2:8-9, perhaps?)<br /><br />I'm sorry; I couldn't resist.rhymeswithplaguehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10870439618129001633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-25073614611305187332012-10-09T10:38:01.380-07:002012-10-09T10:38:01.380-07:00The following information is from the latest Pew p...The following information is from the latest Pew polling results regarding religion in America. You can find the rest of the report at: http://www.pewforum.org/Unaffiliated/nones-on-the-rise.aspx<br /><br />"The number of Americans who do not identify with any religion continues to grow at a rapid pace. One-fifth of the U.S. public – and a third of adults under 30 – are religiously unaffiliated today, the highest percentages ever in Pew Research Center polling.<br /><br />"In the last five years alone, the unaffiliated have increased from just over 15% to just under 20% of all U.S. adults. Their ranks now include more than 13 million self-described atheists and agnostics (nearly 6% of the U.S. public), as well as nearly 33 million people who say they have no particular religious affiliation (14%)."<br /><br />If you're not religious, this is good news. If you are religious, it points to a future in which faith will no longer be the default position. This will result in more open challenges to religion as opposed to our society's current attitude that everyone is supposed to show respect for everyone else's religious beliefs for no better reason than that they are religious beliefs. The only discouraging part of the report (from my point of view) is that atheists and agnostics still only comprise 6% of the population. I had thought that atheists alone number that high. It is also true that atheists don't generally like being lumped together with agnostics because they tend to view agnosticism as irrational, and if there is one thing that most atheists hold in high esteem, it's rationality. Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-10242620535558892702012-10-08T15:33:18.965-07:002012-10-08T15:33:18.965-07:00Make that three installments.
(3) If a miracle ma...Make that three installments.<br /><br />(3) If a miracle may be defined as the setting aside of the laws of nature, then the probability that a miracle has occurred must always be less than the probability that it hasn’t unless one can show evidence that it is possible to set aside the laws of nature.<br /><br />(4) The fact that large numbers of people believe that a miracle occurred doesn't meant that a miracle occurred. The following account is from http://catholicfundamentalism.com/mary-fatimathe-only-explanation-of-the-miracle-of-the-sun-at-fatima/1655:<br /><br />"What occurred was witnessed by over 70,000 people including representatives of the media, reporters from all the principal daily newspapers in Lisbon. It was a very wet morning on 13th October, 1917. It had been raining all night. At noon: "Suddenly the rain stopped. The clouds were wrenched apart and the sun appeared in all its splendour. Then it began to revolve on its axis like the most magnificent firewheel that could be imagined, taking all the colours of the rainbow and sending forth multi-coloured flashes of light producing the most astounding effect.” (Dr. Formigao, Professor at Santarem, Portugal.)<br /><br />The following is an Italian newspaper account of the event.<br /><br />"The sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic law – the sun danced.” Dr. Almeida Garrett of Coimbra stated: “The sun, whirling wildly seemed to loosen itself from the firmament and advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge and fiery weight. The sensation was terrible.” The incident was repeated three times lasted eight to ten minutes. It has since come to be known as the Miracle of the Sun. There can be no doubt that this actually happened as it was well documented by reliable sources. It was not of natural origin as it was not recorded by any astronomical observatory. Neither was it a case of collective hallucinations as it was seen up to 30 kilometres away by people going about their normal duties unconscious of what was happening at Fatima.” (from Seculo)<br /><br />(5) Everyone believes that their religion (or even their version of a version of a religion) is the one true religion, and many of these people are ready to die for it because doing so will win them entry into paradise. Religious "truth" is ever a matter of emotion, which is in most cases preceded by enculturation.<br /><br />(6) If there's one thing that can be said for our species, it's that large numbers of us stand ready to rush out and die for questionable causes. Within decades or less of its inception, people were indeed dying for Christianity, but it is important to look at their deaths in the context of that part of the world at that time in history. Life was short and brutish, and most people were provincial and ignorant, and this made them easy marks for someone who promised everlasting happiness in exchange for martyrdom. I doubt that the motivating forces in the lives of the early Christians were really that different from the motivating forces in the lives of those from that same area who die as suicide bombers today.Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-20031857487025420532012-10-08T15:32:43.596-07:002012-10-08T15:32:43.596-07:00"WHY did the apostles continue to 'spread..."WHY did the apostles continue to 'spread his word' after he died and swear they 'saw him' arise after death?"<br /><br />I'm just going to throw out a few points here.<br /><br />(1) You have only the word of the Bible to take for this, and having rejected Biblical authority in every other significant regard, I'm a little lost as to why this particular point appears to ring true for you. The fact that Jesus was a real person isn't attested to by any document near the supposed period in which he lived other than the New Testament. The part of the New Testament that contains the story of his life (and was supposedly written by those who knew him) didn't appear until decades after his death and was authored by unknown persons. Inasmuch as I can recall, the New Testament only mentions one Christian martyr, Stephen. Although there are legends regarding the deaths of the apostles, these cannot be verified.<br /><br />(2) Jesus' resurrection didn't win him the special status that the Bible claimed. Some other resurrected deities were Horus, Osiris, Attis, Krishna, Mithra, and Dionysus, and these were only the famous ones. In fact, nearly all of the notable events of Jesus' life occurred in the lives of earlier gods. This is why Joseph Campbell believed that a single ancient myth gave birth to many deities. <br /><br />Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-76730474795777476512012-10-08T15:31:33.321-07:002012-10-08T15:31:33.321-07:00I exceeded the "character" count, so I&#...I exceeded the "character" count, so I'm going to have to do this in two installments.<br /><br />Thank you, ladyfi and Winifred.<br /><br />All Con, I loved your accent.<br /><br />"Snow, you might not want to print this"<br /><br />I would never print anything that someone asked me not to, but since you seemed to leave it up to me, I decided to go ahead.<br /><br />Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-22142805704117304762012-10-07T10:40:50.546-07:002012-10-07T10:40:50.546-07:00Snow, you might not want to print this, since it&#...Snow, you might not want to print this, since it's a question from one athiest to another, but I've been at a loss to answer ONE THING from the bible: WHY did the apostles continue to 'spread his word' after he died and swear they 'saw him' arise after death? These guys supposedly were killed due to that 'belief' of theirs. I know I wouldn't continue a lie if I was going to get killed for it. Have you ever wondered about that part? It's kind of bugging me.lotta joyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12742978845913126675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-80828835068567022042012-10-06T14:28:14.074-07:002012-10-06T14:28:14.074-07:00Blimey guvnor. T'all made me laugh, n arll go ...Blimey guvnor. T'all made me laugh, n arll go t'top of are stares if it'int true.All Consuminghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03089119991474852732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-24899182252565670762012-10-05T04:49:05.675-07:002012-10-05T04:49:05.675-07:00Love this post. The dialect reminded me of Mark Tw...Love this post. The dialect reminded me of Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn where Huck & Jim are pontificating about the bible. I can remember laughing myself silly when I read it.<br /><br />You two ought to get together & write a book. You'd sell millions!Winifredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12415302188575538163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-2071971291516423582012-10-04T09:43:06.013-07:002012-10-04T09:43:06.013-07:00What a great post! Had to smile a bit too...What a great post! Had to smile a bit too...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-29586174262355663702012-10-02T10:18:08.079-07:002012-10-02T10:18:08.079-07:00As soon as I hit the orange button, I saw errors, ...As soon as I hit the orange button, I saw errors, so I'm redoing that last comment.<br /><br />"God is not a monster, despite what you write over and over on your blog."<br /><br />Hark and alark! I don't write about God but about the imaginary deity of a tribe of Bronze Age sheepherders, and I only write about him because he's still accepted today. He inspires our wars and our social policies, and he has done these things since the beginning of our country and even before that if you consider the behavior of the Dutch, English, French, and Spanish, explorers. Rational people who can easily spot the sickness of a Jim Jones, or a David Koresh, or a Sun Myung Moon, are blind to the evils of the Biblical deity because he is ancient, accepted by millions, and has a grand edifice on every street corner that testifies to his reality. Yet, having the trappings of reality doesn't prove that the substance of reality is present.<br /><br />"insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, we should stop trying."<br /><br />Hark and alark again! Then I (at least) am not insane because I don't expect different results. I write to inform others and to refine my own views. If my words should change anyone's mind, I would be delighted, but I don't expect it because I recognize that, while I'm writing to rational people, I'm not writing about a subject in which rationality has much influence. Just as you would hold, I suspect, that a person must abandon reason to an extent before he can embrace what's called religious faith, so must a person allow cracks to appear in the wall of his religious faith in order to embrace reason. If religious people were amendable to this happening, I hold that there would be no religion. I would be arrogant indeed to imagine that my small efforts have much chance of success, but I don't need success. I write about what comes to me to write about, and I enjoy writing it. I also enjoy dialoguing about it.Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-82171956563947511662012-10-02T05:20:46.866-07:002012-10-02T05:20:46.866-07:00I think you have it all upside-down and inside-out...I think you have it all upside-down and inside-out and backwards, Snowy, but you sure make a strong argument. It's just that you're not calling the shots even though you would like to be. There is a loving God whether you want to believe it or not. Who will be in Heaven may surprise some people. And salvation by faith doesn't exclude anyone except those who refuse to have faith. But a person <i>saying</i> he's saved by faith is not the same as <i>being</i> saved by faith. We do need to remember that the book of James in the New Testament says faith without works is dead. That's the part where we get to show love to our neighbor. Works without faith gets you nowhere (Ephesians), and faith without works gets you nowhere (James). I'm saying this poorly, but I hope what I mean is getting across.<br /><br />God is not a monster, despite what you write over and over on your blog. That Book tells us His ways are higher than our ways, but basically you are saying that you know better, that your ways are higher than His ways. (If one child dies we can write God off, and so forth.) So besides contradicting God, you are just plain wrong. All the bad things demonstrate our fallenness and need of a Savior, not God's cruelty.<br /><br />I can't convince you, Snow, and you can't convince me either. And since insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, we should stop trying. But let's be friends anyway. <br /><br /><br /><br /> rhymeswithplaguehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10870439618129001633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-36524210113720648112012-10-01T15:57:40.180-07:002012-10-01T15:57:40.180-07:00Deb, another problem with salvation by faith is th...Deb, another problem with salvation by faith is that it excludes non-Christians, which means that most of the population of heaven will be composed of Caucasians who had the good luck (and luck it would have been) to grow up in Christian countries. Hitler, a Catholic, might very well be in heaven as I write while Gandhi, a Hindu, is certainly in hell, and this is the work of a deity that is all-wise, all-just, and all-merciful? Another problem is that Jesus never said that faith was the preeminent virtue; he said that love was, and this sentiment was repeated by Paul. However, when I hear most Protestant Christians talk, it seems obvious that the tantamount virtue in their minds is faith because, as they see it, it is faith and only faith that insures personal salvation. Love and every other virtue is thus subjugated to one's private desire to do that in heaven which you're not supposed to want to do here on earth, which is to be surrounded by gold and jewels. And what do we have to do to get all that gold and all those jewels? We have to get our final sentence right. Call on Buddha, and you'll be damned for all eternity. Call on Christ, and, wham, you're saved. If that's not legalism, I don't know what it is. To refer to this "scheme of salvation" as having anything to do with spirituality is really quite appalling to me, not only because it's selfish, but because it's utterly lacking in depth and beauty. Rather, it portrays God as being like some silly rich man who will give a million dollars to everyone who says that she believes that he will give her a million dollars. Okay, so someone believes without ever having seen that rich man or even having solid reason to believe that he exists. Would that belief count as virtue in your mind? Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-86484695441584194662012-10-01T11:40:01.005-07:002012-10-01T11:40:01.005-07:00"I cannot answer your question until you expl..."I cannot answer your question until you explain what 'figuratively drown' might mean..."<br /><br />How about drowning in grief or drowning in alcohol?<br /><br />"But Mrs. RWP, a registered nurse, tells me a person can drown in a cup of water. Literally."<br /><br />Or less if that person has a small nose.<br /><br />"Did you know that someone has published a photograph of a chariot wheel found at the bottom of the Red Sea?"<br /><br />I know nothing about that. Maybe it fell off a passing ship.<br /><br />"Some days I believe one thing and some days I believe another"<br /><br />Then I think it would be safe to conclude that a literal interpretation of many Biblical events isn't important to you, which is what I was trying to get at. Would you say that the same is true of the miracles performed by Christ? Again, I'm not trying to challenge you but to understand what your thoughts are. <br /><br />"As always, very insightful Snow."<br /><br />Thanks, Hiker.Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-60778776350273148702012-10-01T10:53:21.085-07:002012-10-01T10:53:21.085-07:00As always, very insightful Snow. As always, very insightful Snow. CreekHiker / HollysFollyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14987597104795294851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-22678842382604698242012-10-01T10:23:12.303-07:002012-10-01T10:23:12.303-07:00Deb, I first became aware of "salvation by fa...Deb, I first became aware of "salvation by faith" from listening to a Methodist teenager on a church outing debate three Church of Christ preachers (my old church, The C of C believed that both faith and works was necessary). No one can win such debates because you can pull out verses in abundance to support either side, although it does seem to me that the legalism represented by works is actually superior to the legalism represented by faith because under the latter, you just have to say the correct sentence, which still comes down to being saved by what you do rather than what is in your heart. You might respond that, well, one has to BELIEVE the sentence, but what does this mean, actually? Does a person have to believe it 100% or will she squeak by if she's just hurting and scared out of her wits after being run over by a truck?Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-34238119696356328622012-10-01T06:04:35.659-07:002012-10-01T06:04:35.659-07:00Ok, I is bypassing all dem talk 'bout dialects...Ok, I <i>is</i> bypassing all dem talk 'bout dialects n'such. <br /><br />I will say that it does raise a few questions when you think for years and years, somebody does all the good works as Jesus did, and never goes to heaven because they didn't receive Christ as their savior, and just by one sentence from a born again Christian right before dying says, "I receive Jesus Christ as my savior" and viola --- they go to heaven after years of struggling with sin. But, then keep in mind what the bible says about 'good works'.... <br /><br />In Romans 7 it states, <i>"The law no longer holds you in its power, because you died to its power when you died with Christ on the cross. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, you can produce good fruit, that is, good deeds for God. When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced sinful deeds, resulting in death. But now we have been released from the law, for we died with Christ and we are no longer captive to its power. Now we can really serve God, not in the old way by obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way, by the Spirit."</i> <br /><br />All the good deeds in the world will not get you a ticket into heaven no matter how much someone claims they are a Christian. It is by faith alone. And when you have faith alone, that produces a seed of *desire* to <i>want</i> to do good for your 'neighbor' and help others - love others as you would yourself. It's not even a matter of obeying a law --- it's more about the joy and peace of the actual meaning of "love"; by doing things for people without the law ---- as it says that we are no longer bound to the law, because when Jesus died on the cross, the laws were abolished. So when the Spirit works within us, it's just this freaky power of spiritual nature that makes us want to help everyone. There are many corrupt "religious" people and those who don't fit the "Christian bill" -- they only want to claim they go to church every Sunday like a good soul, but never do anything for anyone... That's not what God wanted. If the Spirit was truly within that person, it would be different. Sadly, the Spirit isn't even found in some of our most prestigious Christian/Catholic leaders. <br /><br />I can see why so many Christians get discouraged. I enjoyed reading this, especially in that dialect. You painted an awesome picture for me. Thanks again for another well written and thought provoking post! <br /><br /> Debhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14986475569600734742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-733466098642394852012-10-01T04:01:19.603-07:002012-10-01T04:01:19.603-07:00"Did pharaoh and his army literally drown?&qu..."Did pharaoh and his army literally drown?"<br /><br />I cannot answer your question until you explain what 'figuratively drown' might mean...The footnotes in my Bible say Moses led the children of Israel through the ankle-deep Reed Sea (Hebrew, <i>Yam Suph</i>), not the Red Sea. So those mean Egyptians may have only figuratively drowned, I suppose. But Mrs. RWP, a registered nurse, tells me a person can drown in a cup of water. Literally. <br /><br />Did you know that someone has published a photograph of a chariot wheel found at the bottom of the Red Sea?<br /><br />I'm not being cagey. Some days I believe one thing and some days I believe another, just like Humpty Dumpty in <i>Alice in Wonderland</i>, who said some days he believed six impossible things before breakfast.<br /><br />"I don't know." That's my final answer, Regis.rhymeswithplaguehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10870439618129001633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-9537029175932422312012-09-30T19:27:16.278-07:002012-09-30T19:27:16.278-07:00Who'd have thought that a comment on dialects ...Who'd have thought that a comment on dialects would open a can of worms as large as your old comments on religion used to.<br /><br />lotta joyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12742978845913126675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-51386787855718324002012-09-30T18:53:51.072-07:002012-09-30T18:53:51.072-07:00You guys are both high on something. You should s...You guys are both high on something. You should smoke weed together and laugh.Strayerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08124298302997708537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-43953924441143119842012-09-30T15:42:51.426-07:002012-09-30T15:42:51.426-07:00apology accepted :)apology accepted :)kyliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08964475783207438103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-74526268612779663692012-09-30T10:48:17.219-07:002012-09-30T10:48:17.219-07:00"i'm a little disappointed you chose to g..."i'm a little disappointed you chose to go in so hard on your assessment."<br /><br />I can see why you would feel that way, and I apologize. After I wrote, I thought about Larry the Cable Guy who uses a redneck persona for humor, and I don't feel offended by his use of it, and I would probably feel the same if I heard your brother. <br /><br />"In our parents' generation it was Tobacco Road. In our generation it was To Kill a Mockingbird. In this generation it has been O Brother, Where Art Thou?."<br /><br />I've never seen O Brother, Where Art Thou?, so I will have to look it up. When I think of movies that had a powerful cultural impact on me, Easy Rider easily heads the list.<br /><br />"I'm a Methodist. An aging Methodist. "<br /><br />I have the idea that Methodists are suffering through a tiny amount of what Episcopalians have been going through for a long time due to some people wanting the church to be inclusive of homosexuals at every level and others hanging back, some of them waaay back. So, the fact that you are Methodist really doesn't tell me much. So, if you will allow, let's take the story of the Exodus. Did the ten plagues literally happen? Did pharaoh and his army literally drown? Did the Israelites wander in a literal desert for 40 literal years? By the way, I'm not looking to challenge you, but rather to understand.Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-58665547920101833822012-09-30T04:08:57.546-07:002012-09-30T04:08:57.546-07:00"would you describe yourself as more of a Bib..."would you describe yourself as more of a Biblical literalist, or do you take most of the stories as more true on a metaphoric level?"<br /><br />I would say yes and yes, or possibly at times and at times, but never always and always. It depends. What does that tell you? Probably that I'm a Methodist. An aging Methodist. There aren't too many around like me. I'm one of a kind. Just like everybody else.<br /><br />rhymeswithplaguehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10870439618129001633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-67835114869570389972012-09-30T04:04:51.263-07:002012-09-30T04:04:51.263-07:00"I guess you're exposed to American cultu..."I guess you're exposed to American culture through movies..."<br /><br />In our parents' generation it was <i>Tobacco Road</i>. In our generation it was <i>To Kill a Mockingbird</i>. In this generation it has been <i>O Brother, Where Art Thou?</i>. I suppose we dare not mention all the stuff Tyler Perry has done or people might say we are bigots when all we really are is gifted when it comes to dialects.rhymeswithplaguehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10870439618129001633noreply@blogger.com