tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post7672082145410538719..comments2024-03-14T15:03:56.066-07:00Comments on Snowbrush: Ban religion?Snowbrushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-22287791371076938052013-03-15T07:16:39.847-07:002013-03-15T07:16:39.847-07:00Hi Snowbrush,
I've been AWOL again. But I re...Hi Snowbrush,<br /><br />I've been AWOL again. But I read several of your posts today. I was a member of M. O'Hair's group in the early 80's but she used to anger me to no end with her brash comments that immediately made religious people stop listening to anything rational she had to say. At the time, she was the 'only game in town' so I continued my membership. But I joined the FFRF later. They have a softer approach, yet I think they are very effective in bringing religious abuses to light. <br /><br />As to banning religion, I agree that banning something makes it that much more desirable to people. If religion were banned, it would be like the prohibition years, with religious speakeasies, secret meetings, and people being arrested for their beliefs. As someone else said, education is the answer. <br /><br />What worries me is how many of our young people are home schooled ---where they are spoon-fed their parent's religious beliefs at the same time they are isolated from other belief systems ---or lack thereof. A neighbor home schools her child. From what I see, he has no social skills, no friends his age, and is a general doofus. I predict he has a good chance of one or more of the following happening: becoming a scary fundamentalist or rejecting religion completely or neurotic due to all the guilt inflicted upon him or being gay and rejected by his parent (I see the signs.) <br /><br />I used to say I didn't hate religion, but I have gotten past that. Every time I see the pope on TV or hear a dumb-ass comment that Pat Robertson has made, I have a little spark of anger and great dislike, if not hate.<br /><br />By the way, I'm reading a book now you might enjoy ---"The Year of Living Biblically" by A.J.Jacobs, an agnostic Jew who decided to try to follow all Biblical laws for a year ---just to see what would happen. I'm only into his 3rd month---and at least he hasn't stoned anyone yet. But he grew a beard, wouldn't touch women or work on Saturdays, ate kosher, wore tassles on his cloths, stayed with an Amish family for a weekend and visited a creationist museum. He's still an agnostic (so far in my reading) but he is more sympathetic to religion than he used to be ---I think mainly because most of the time he is talking to people who are moderately reasonable about religion. It's thought-provoking and humorous. <br /><br />(His previous books were "The Know-It-All" about a year spent reading the Encyclopedia Britannica A-Z and "Drop Dead Healthy" about his year trying to find the best formula for a healthy life.)C Woodshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13053858627632648020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-47520635486097467412013-03-02T18:23:38.872-08:002013-03-02T18:23:38.872-08:00"You interpret that as ‘intolerance’ because ..."You interpret that as ‘intolerance’ because of the weirdly privileged status of religion, which expects to get a free ride and not have to defend itself."<br /><br />This is the kind of thing I was referring to when I expressed uncertainty about whether the New Atheists are a force for good (or at least more good than bad). I, frankly, believe they are, and I completely agree with the above, yet I can also see how it could be seen as alienating. In my blog, I try very hard to not be alienating, yet I realize that I might express myself that way without intending it because the differences between atheists and theists are simply so profound. Tact fails at times.<br /><br />"how to force their children into their religious beliefs and pray out the demons in their houses."<br /><br />Sounds like you got a free floor show. I recall a story from ancient Greek philosophy about two philosophers, one of whom was so filled with compassion for human foolishness (and the pain that is caused by it) that he was often in tears. The other found human foolishness so absurd that he was often seen laughing. I relate to both of these views, but I prefer the second.<br /><br />"The problem with the C.S. Lewis quote..."<br /><br />Atheists invariably think poorly of Lewis, which is ironic in that traditionalist Christians consider him one of their most impressive apologists. Such is the distance between the two camps.Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-12853265365184762632013-03-02T15:05:17.933-08:002013-03-02T15:05:17.933-08:00@Charles - Yes, Dawkins has made comments about ba...@Charles - Yes, Dawkins has made comments about banning religion such as this one:<br /><br />"It would be intolerant if I advocated the banning of religion, but of course I never have. I merely give robust expression to views about the cosmos and morality with which you happen to disagree. You interpret that as ‘intolerance’ because of the weirdly privileged status of religion, which expects to get a free ride and not have to defend itself."<br /><br />@Marion<br /><br />"I think a world without religion would be a cold, dead place."<br /><br />A few weeks ago I was seated in a restaurant next to a group of ladies who spent about 10 minutes loudly praying and 30 minutes discussing how to force their children into their religious beliefs and pray out the demons in their houses.<br /><br />I found myself deeply saddened by the sheer emptiness of their lives, squandering their time and energy on beliefs that were so patently false and harmful to their relationships.<br /><br />The problem with the C.S. Lewis quote is that the sun is an actual object. Worldwide, people agree that it exists and provides us with light, warmth, and energy. Lewis is arguing that there are other suns, visible only to a subset of the population and even then with no agreed upon position, magnitude, or quantity. The "many-suns skeptic" can no more be moved by the glory of invisible suns than the atheist can be moved by the glory of gods that exist entirely within the minds of other people.Lee Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13736680452703464160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-57643043920956736062013-03-01T16:41:21.129-08:002013-03-01T16:41:21.129-08:00"The point about religious people claiming th..."The point about religious people claiming that atheists want to ban religion is just a garden-variety “straw-man” argument"<br /><br />Many Christians claim that the New Atheists behave similarly by only attacking the most literalistic forms of Christianity while ignoring the ones that, in the view of those who subscribe to them, are more rational. I've received similar criticisms. My defense is that I usually limit myself to what I perceive as the most prevalent Christian views because it would be impossible to get around to every variant even if I wanted to., although I did devote quite a posts to liberal Christianity recently.<br /><br />"So many people simply cling to the "sure and certain hope of life ..." after death that means it would be cruel to ban such sad belief."<br /><br />Well, it would also be impossible, and maybe even counterproductive--as it was in ancient Rome. More importantly, the atheists I've known think people have a right to believe as they please. Where atheists have issues is with things like tax exempt churches, faith-based child abuse, and efforts by religious people to impose their beliefs upon others by creating closer ties between church and state.Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-36832460390610277782013-03-01T15:28:54.474-08:002013-03-01T15:28:54.474-08:00Banning things often makes them more 'desirabl...Banning things often makes them more 'desirable' - vidé prohibition in the USA.<br />Live and let live is the best policy imo. So many people simply cling to the "sure and certain hope of life ..." after death that means it would be cruel to ban such sad belief. <br />I'd love to see certain religions fade away, such as Catholicism and its idiotic "rules". But it will keep going long after I've gone. The Pope has retired, long live the next Pope ... Huh! What a murderous lot the old Popes (Borgias? perhaps) and there I rest my case.PhilipHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06811831703263176415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-61026095535856741702013-03-01T15:21:09.400-08:002013-03-01T15:21:09.400-08:00The point about religious people claiming that ath...The point about religious people claiming that atheists want to ban religion is just a garden-variety “straw-man” argument, wherein they take a preposterously exaggerated position and claim it represents their foe’s views, and then attack it. It happens constantly in politics and hourly on Fox “News.”<br /><br />It’s an effective, albeit dishonest ploy, especially with those who want to believe it or are too insulated to know any better.<br />bluzdudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05991272670722362652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-53270900876416111452013-03-01T14:54:08.417-08:002013-03-01T14:54:08.417-08:00"I'm so tired, and getting more tired.&qu..."I'm so tired, and getting more tired."<br /><br />I wish I could make you well if for no other reason than my own selfishness. You are one of those who have hung in there with me, and I'm devoted to you. It's commonly said that humor is born out of pain, and that's so obvious with you because the things you write about aren't at all funny in themselves, and, indeed, you used to write about them with bitterness. I just wish you had the energy, desire, and years to throw yourself into producing humor for fame and money.<br /><br />"Now I'm feeling responsible for more than myself and don't know what I'm supposed to do to ease his emotional pain."<br /><br />If he believes, as so many do, that his all-loving, all-just, and all-merciful God sends good people to eternal torture simply because that they were unable to accept the authority of anonymous people who died 2,000 years ago regarding God's existence and his utterly bizarre "plan of salvation," I guess there isn't anything you can do. I don't get it, though, how people can believe things that cancel one another out. I want to be sympathetic, but it's hard for me as I know it would be for you if it were anyone but him who is suffering. I wonder if his clergy person could offer him any hope based upon a more compassionate reading of Scripture. After all, you're not saying no to God because one who can't believe in God can't say no to God. In this, you are as a person who never heard the "gospel." Like me, if you should be wrong, and end up before God someday, you could truthfully say that you did the best you could given the light that you had, and, hopefully, your husband might find it within his heart to accept that, if God is a God of justice and mercy, that this would count for a great deal. Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-65583360514876909562013-03-01T13:24:53.674-08:002013-03-01T13:24:53.674-08:00I'm so tired, and getting more tired. So I do...I'm so tired, and getting more tired. So I don't even think of being an athiest versus a christian any more.<br /><br />Consider my shock when my husband told me, while crying, that he finds it so horrifying to know he'll never see me again after I'm dead because of my lack of belief. Now I'm feeling responsible for more than myself and don't know what I'm supposed to do to ease his emotional pain.lotta joyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12742978845913126675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-49903303062871868942013-03-01T10:37:02.603-08:002013-03-01T10:37:02.603-08:00"And what would replace religion?"
I su..."And what would replace religion?"<br /><br />I suppose the Scandinavian countries are the best examples of what a nearly religion-free society would look like, and the people there seem quite content (although I don't know anyone can be content when it's so cold and dark in winter). As for the assurance of divine protection and life after death, obviously no religion-free society could provide that, but then not all religions do either. As for feeling secure in this life, Scandinavia appears to do that quite well for its citizens, so maybe if people in other countries felt similarly protected, divine protection and belief in an afterlife wouldn't seem so important to them. As it is, many people turn to religion simply because their lives are so bad on earth. <br /><br />"More like, religion has held civilization back from the get go."<br /><br />I would tend to agree, but would also suspect that polytheism was much less harmful that monotheism simply because, once you accept the idea that there is only one God, you naturally want to stamp out the belief in all those other Gods, whereas polytheists never exemplified such intolerance. Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-25907589212166158262013-03-01T08:22:33.351-08:002013-03-01T08:22:33.351-08:00I totally disagree with Charles that without relig...I totally disagree with Charles that without religion we wouldn't have civilization as we know it today. I don't believe that religion was the motivation behind civilization. And by religion did he mean christianity? because there have been incredible civilizations on this planet long before christianity and even after. More like, religion has held civilization back from the get go.ellen abbotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00535475792150335186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-9229194960984935052013-03-01T00:39:06.438-08:002013-03-01T00:39:06.438-08:00Banning things usually doesn't work. Educatio...Banning things usually doesn't work. Education works.The Blog Fodderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11441978691701289074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-37689389404759199122013-02-28T21:31:48.078-08:002013-02-28T21:31:48.078-08:00And what would replace religion? Because I feel c...And what would replace religion? Because I feel confident that something would, and while I could hope that the replacement was better, I wouldn't like to take any bets on it.Elephant's Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06650565833097914052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-55836708947983184662013-02-28T19:47:30.733-08:002013-02-28T19:47:30.733-08:00"none have moved me as profoundly as the Bibl..."none have moved me as profoundly as the Bible did when I first read it at age twelve."<br /><br />Which was about the age that I read one of several Scriptures in which God ordered the Jews to commit genocide, and my religion went out the window and never completely returned.<br /><br />"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell."<br /><br />If I believed that God existed, and that God was worthy of worship, then I would worship him/her/it, but I can't very well worship an entity whose existence I don't accept, or whose goodness (based upon the Bible) I couldn't accept even if I did accept his existence.Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-19179325228006070152013-02-28T19:21:08.033-08:002013-02-28T19:21:08.033-08:00Religion has played an important part in my life. ...Religion has played an important part in my life. Of the thousands of books I've read in the past few years, none have moved me as profoundly as the Bible did when I first read it at age twelve. I belonged to no church but I felt God's presence. I learned love, forgiveness, kindness, caring, morality, belonging, tolerance and faith...among other things.<br /><br />I think a world without religion would be a cold, dead place. xo<br /><br />"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain<br />Marionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14786883679294446945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-49452794132799431252013-02-28T13:14:50.089-08:002013-02-28T13:14:50.089-08:00"without religion we'd have virtually no ..."without religion we'd have virtually no civilization as we know it today."<br /><br />You say this as if it would be a bad thing, which I very much doubt given that the stronger religion is in a given culture, the worse-off that culture seems to be. My question would be whether it is even possible for any religion to be desirable. While I don't mean to imply that everything needs to be founded upon science, it is invariably true that religion goes further than that in that it is anti-science in the sense that it elevates divine revelation (which is accepted upon authority) above methods that have been shown to work in determining truth. I suppose if you were once a hard-drinker who gave it up upon finding Jesus, you would say that religion was certainly a good influence your life and hence in society, but that would be to take a pragmatic position, and I have trouble doing that, perhaps because I tend to elevate objective truth over everything else. Once the importance of such truth is discounted, where does it logically stop being discounted? My fear is that it doesn't, that the end will be widespread rank superstition, something that we have too much of as it is.Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-64546732097668269392013-02-28T12:28:41.015-08:002013-02-28T12:28:41.015-08:00Dawkins has made some comments about banning relig...Dawkins has made some comments about banning religion. I suspect, personally, that without religion we'd have virtually no civilization as we know it today. On the other hand, in the modern scientific driven civilization, religion often has become a real millstone around the neck of progress.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.com