tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post350518300725096260..comments2024-03-27T12:58:00.592-07:00Comments on Snowbrush: In closingSnowbrushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-4208966014688412842010-07-21T02:45:08.328-07:002010-07-21T02:45:08.328-07:00Kia ora Snow,
Wow, an interesting point to jump i...Kia ora Snow,<br /> Wow, an interesting point to jump into your place here, and certainly some thoughtful reading, comments, and things to ponder. I guess I also need to work backwards here a bit into your prior posts. For various reason I lost my interest in religion as a teen ager, and only in the past few years have found my interest in faith, God,and all that, a more interesting subject as I wander about the mountains here in New Zealand. Not that I have found many, or even any, answers, but it seems at least of some benefit to even be asking the questions - if not to take my mind off steep climbs.<br /> Appreciate your stopping by, hope those knees hold up. I have a blogging friend whom I met here in NZ, a former mountaineer, artic traveler, marathon runner, long distance rower ect, now in his early 60's and he had just had both knees replaced. He is now back walking, tramping and planning to climb a mountain. Knees can be a bit more problematic than hips, but sometimes I wonder about the US medical system looks at what can be done with new joints from a more negative point of view than positive. My surgeon never suggested to me my tramping days were over, perhaps how I climbed and tramped might have to be adjusted but never that I shouldn't be as active as possible. Activities like tennis and running are not advisable, but his only advice in terms of what I could do and not do was to listen to my body. I had pretty major osteo arthritis in the hip joint, and to pain free and more mobile, as I wrote, is priceless. I will be 50 in a matter of days so will never move like I did at 25, but then again last year at this time I was moving like I was 75, so life is pretty good. Kia kaha my friend.<br />Cheers,<br />RobbRuahineshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09398484733805119294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-80671718126870987682010-07-14T03:09:01.186-07:002010-07-14T03:09:01.186-07:00Hi Snowbrush. I'm a Hindu from India. I too am...Hi Snowbrush. I'm a Hindu from India. I too am not overtly religious, but I do believe in the Hindu philosophy that there is a "higher power" that governs the Universe, and everything around us.<br /><br />We know the laws of Physics, but we don't know WHY they are the way they are. This is also a fundamental question that has to be answered, apart from other questions about the Big Bang and 'dark matter'. If we answer this, I think we would crack the mind of "God".<br /><br />Thank you.Abhimanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723364791154386945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-71528109744477245312010-07-13T23:27:21.717-07:002010-07-13T23:27:21.717-07:00Rob-bear said: "There's a lot of nonsense...Rob-bear said: "There's a lot of nonsense that gets bundled up with Christianity, by "Christians," that isn't Christian at all."<br /><br />Individual Christians are unhappy if I criticize their particular version of Christianity, but they're also unhappy if I criticize someone else's version of Christianity while ignoring theirs. As they see it, the former is to commit blasphemy, and the latter is to completely miss the point. Suffice it to say that I don't accept ANY version of Christianity, not Luther's, or Calvin's, or Wesley's, or Joseph Smith's, or Kierkegaard's, or Pope John XXIII's, or the Apostle Paul's, or Shelby Spong's, or Jesus Christ's. As I see it, all of versions of the religion are a sickness of the mind, the only difference being that some are more virulent than others. I fully believe that the only reason that people like myself are not killed for our opinions is that modern day Christians lack the political power to so do legally, and, so far, none have wanted to do so illegally badly enough to carry through.<br /><br />Joe Todd said: "Maybe God/god just laughs at the follies of man."<br /><br />I'm sorry, Joe, but I don't understand what this means.<br /><br />Dale, thanks very much for your comments. We are mostly in agreement.<br /><br />Dale said: "They're just-so stories, the result of ancient primitives trying to make sense of the world."<br /><br />I think there's more to it than that. For example, ancient Israel's social elite sought to use religion to legitimize their power, whereas the outsiders--as represented by the prophets--sought to use it to subvert that power. The same has happened through all of recorded history--during America's Civil Rights period, for example, as in its slavery period. More than anything, religion is about the preservation--or the usurpation--of power. Invariably though, religious groups that succeed in taking power from other religious groups behave as wickedly as their predecessors.Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-25873496845627795162010-07-13T21:07:35.928-07:002010-07-13T21:07:35.928-07:00This comment thread alone manifests the weird qual...This comment thread alone manifests the weird quality of Christianity wherein people just flit along and define it, shape it, reshape it, read into it, and otherwise interpret it according to vagary and whimsy. Pick a passage here, pick one there, whatever the situation calls for -- a Bartlett's book of quotations that can also serve as a history, a morals guide, and a prediction manual. Or something. <br /><br />God commands this here, but can't be held to the obvious entailments of what he commanded there, until someone's mood changes and that passage now seems to call for a literal reading. It's wearying.<br /><br />Deut 12:32: "Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it."<br /><br />This means you have to be considering stoning the disobedient kids to death, and putting to death neighbors who work on Sundays. And so on.<br /><br />Later in Matthew, Jesus insists that he has not come to overthrow the old law but to fulfill its every jot and tittle. <br /><br />So if the Bible is not to be taken literally, could someone please outline the consistent and authoritative rule by which to interpret it? And please add the source by which you consider this method to be the one authorized by god or whoever?<br /><br />To be clear: I think the Bible is a work of fiction, and the tendency to take it too seriously -- as more than just another clssic text -- has wrecked far too many lives, swaddled far too much ignorance. Taking it as more than a book should cease if we are to be self-respecting, civilized people. (Don't even get me started on the Koran.)<br /><br />By now, we have better books. Keep the old ones, but consider the broader collection -- by now the volumes number in the millions. Throw out the bad, keep the good.<br /><br />These "sacred books" are nothing but lore. They're fables and sloppy histories. They're just-so stories, the result of ancient primitives trying to make sense of the world. To treat them as more than this is to invite confusion and pain.Dalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10523307255698594696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-25687554756895638472010-07-13T05:01:01.683-07:002010-07-13T05:01:01.683-07:00Maybe God/god just laughs at the follies of manMaybe God/god just laughs at the follies of manJoe Toddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07960458164425338569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-49297131070884728532010-07-12T00:58:15.674-07:002010-07-12T00:58:15.674-07:00Interesting comment, Snow:
"I'm unaware ...Interesting comment, Snow:<br /><br />"I'm unaware that I've portrayed God as possessing any attribute that isn't generally ascribed to him, at least by Christians."<br /><br />There's a lot of nonsense that gets bundled up with Christianity, by "Christians," that isn't Christian at all. Just because "somebody" said something "somewhere" doesn't mean that it actually conforms with the gospel.Rob-bearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00171692478879522588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-31812452191434606642010-06-30T11:43:01.579-07:002010-06-30T11:43:01.579-07:00R.J. said: "Interesting discussion--well said...R.J. said: "Interesting discussion--well said."<br /><br />Thank you, R.J.<br /><br />Anvilcloud said: "As a newbie to this blog, I am probably not going to go back and read the whole thing"<br /><br />WHAT! Why that's an outrage! Can I interest you in just the last 300 posts then?<br /><br />Anvilcloud said: "all religion is a form of mental insanity"<br /><br />I, too, know what he means. Whether Tertullian really said, "Credo quia absurdum est," or not, the making of unverifiable faith into a virtue implies that the greater the reason to not believe, the greater the virtue.<br /><br />Vagabonde said: "you will never change what people believe or even have them see your point of view"<br /><br />Whether they can be reached depends upon how firm their faith is. Robert Ingersoll had a tremendous influence on me when my faith was in doubt, and a great many atheists report having had similar experiences upon reading--or hearing--a detractor of faith. Yet, you are right in general, as the responses to this blog attest. I am literally finding it hard to continue blogging after these posts due to the fact that I tried to hard to reach people on a rational level yet failed so miserably. I don't take it as a personal failure but rather a failure of my species to move beyond its primitive origins. Perhaps, despite its destructiveness, religious faith still serves some evolutionary function.<br /><br />Vagabonde said: "a neuroscientist who had found the place in the brain where, if it can be touched (like in an accident) it makes you feel as though you went through a religious experience"<br /><br />This and similar studies have received a great deal of attention in the U.S., but believers claim that they only indicate the part of the brain where we experience God (as opposed to proving that our experience of God is purely physical). I find it interesting that nonbelievers rarely become believers based upon such experiences, and that believers who have them typically interpret them as proving that their version of God is the correct version. For example, among those who see religious figures coming to greet them during so-called NDEs, Catholics are likely to see the Virgin Mary, whereas Protestants NEVER SEE HER--they tend to see Jesus.Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-45608188975478669352010-06-29T20:12:23.094-07:002010-06-29T20:12:23.094-07:00I think I told you before that being raised in Eur...I think I told you before that being raised in Europe I never knew anyone who went to church so I never thought much about it until I came into this super religious country. I tried to read some of the Bible and also did some research on it but I stopped when I realized that so many passages had not been translated correctly and that now, because of computer and research, the translation can be adjusted, but people don’t want to hear of it. I also cannot understand that people want to enforce what they like in the Bible (like against homosexuality) but will not enforce the passages they do not like. <br />I think that your post is very eloquent but you will never change what people believe or even have them see your point of view. It is called “faith” and what is faith? Is to believe in something that cannot be proven, that is not logical or rational. It is the choice to believe in an idea when there is no evidence for it, like something that appeals to you but is not really compatible with reality. If someone has never been brought up in a religious family and ask reasonable questions, there are no reasonable answers when it comes to religion – you need to close your brain and ask no questions. You need to have a lot of credulity or have been brain washed as a child to believe I think because no evidence is given. I think it all comes down to cultural indoctrination and that is quite hard to get rid of, or even to question. When I was in Thailand I read a very interesting article in the international issue of an American magazine. It was about a neuroscientist who had found the place in the brain where, if it can be touched (like in an accident) it makes you feel as though you went through a religious experience. I found the same magazine in the US when I came back, but they had not published that article in it. I guess the public here would not have liked it. I find religious people to be afraid of any evidence that could shatter their “faith.”Vagabondehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10774109692564954568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-43749495387711427302010-06-26T07:16:54.370-07:002010-06-26T07:16:54.370-07:00As a newbie to this blog, I am probably not going ...As a newbie to this blog, I am probably not going to go back and read the whole thing, which I probably pretty well agree with. I'm a former theist, who now tends to agree with my former-theist BIL who has proclaimed that all religion is a form of mental insanity (or something like that). That's harsh, and I guess I don't really agree with him despite what I just said, but I do get what he's driving at. It's brave of you to post these thoughts. Carry on.Anvilcloudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07974744042579564912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-89885847040321936212010-06-24T14:49:31.225-07:002010-06-24T14:49:31.225-07:00Interesting discussion--well said.Interesting discussion--well said.R. J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10291839202970032184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-89955311655970081732010-06-20T11:49:20.058-07:002010-06-20T11:49:20.058-07:00Rhymes said: "Even if you proved that other p...Rhymes said: "Even if you proved that other people made the same claim to exclusivity... the answer is no, it is not possible that I will follow one of them."<br /><br />You did, of course, cite his claim to exclusivity as the basis for your belief. <br /><br />The first chapter of the following book is about Billy Graham. I think you would enjoy it: <br /><br />"Walking away from faith : unraveling the mystery of belief & unbelief" by Ruth TuckerSnowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-77144112341332060462010-06-20T04:48:37.300-07:002010-06-20T04:48:37.300-07:00See there, didn't we have a nice conversation?...See there, didn't we have a nice conversation? You sound very much like what is often referred to these days as "post-evangelical." And so do I sometimes. <br /><br />We are probably more alike than different, except that none of my forebears walked clean across Sand Mountain preaching the Good News. I did have an uncle on my father's side who was a Moody Press colporteur in Iowa, though.<br /><br />You ought to read Flannery O'Connor's short story <i>Good Country People</i>. <br /><br />Even if you proved that other people made the same claim to exclusivity that Jesus is reported in John 14 to have said, the answer is no, it is not possible that I will follow one of them. None of them were the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, or were crucified, dead, and buried, the third day arose from the dead, ascended into heaven, or sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty. <br /><br />With me, it's a done deal. Sorry to disappoint you in that regard. <br /><br />Both of us like to write and to talk, and even though I enjoy our exchanges (and I think you do as well) I don't want your readers to become bored. <br /><br />Billy Graham said one time that no one was ever debated into the kingdom of God.rhymeswithplaguehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10870439618129001633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-12076020003052752842010-06-19T15:28:45.169-07:002010-06-19T15:28:45.169-07:00Rhymes said: "only one of those ever said, &q...Rhymes said: "only one of those ever said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by Me." <br /><br />If I can prove to you that other religious leaders made similar claims to exclusivity, do you think it possible that you will follow one of them?<br /><br />By the way, the gospel of John from which you quote is generally accepted by scholars to have been the last of the gospels. It was almost certainly written in the second century A.D. (or the last decade of the first century at the earliest), which means that the author didn't even know Jesus. It therefore comes to you, at best, as hearsay three times removed--and this is assuming the Jesus was even a real person. <br /><br />As you probably know, the other gospels are called synoptic because they are largely similar, whereas the gospel of John stands out for its claims of Christ's exclusivity and for it's low regard for the Jewish people. This was because, the church, which had originally been just another Jewish sect, had by now split off completely from Judaism, and was primarily constituted of Gentiles. Much of the persecutions of the last 1,900 years can be attributed to this gospel and passages such as the one you quoted.<br /><br />Rhymes said: "So he was either who he presented himself as: son of God, or he was a lunatic, not a "Great Teacher" -- paraphrasing C.S. Lewis here"<br /><br />I find it odd the Lewis only considered these three possibilities. After all, Jesus could have been misquoted for reasons already given, or he could have been a fictitious person, or the meaning of his words could have been lost. <br /><br />Rhymes said: "I also realize that among the Church of Christ folks back in Mississippi, the entire previous paragraph might be considered heresy of the highest sort."<br /><br />They would say that your pride in your own intellect has caused you to turn aside from the plainly revealed word of God and to follow the wisdom of men, and that there will therefore be no place for you at the banquet table of the Son of Man when he has come again in clouds of glory to judge both the quick and the dead. Millions have faith that this is true, Rhymes, and I came from a line of men who taught it from the pulpit, at least one of them near where you live. Once a week, he walked clean across Sand Mountain to preach the Good News.<br /><br />Finally, Rhymes, there is a disagreement about the meaning of the statement you quoted. Not everyone believes Jesus was talking about himself as a person but rather about the body of his teachings. But even if he was talking about himself personally, he didn't spell out what he meant. That was done later by various unknown writers and by church traditions. Protestant Christians often forget that the very existence of the Bible as we know it came to us through Catholicism some 300 years after Christ. It was then that they decided who Jesus was and what his words meant, and correspondingly threw out writings that contradicted their beliefs.Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-2185719228626171612010-06-19T05:13:55.270-07:002010-06-19T05:13:55.270-07:00Snow, I suppose a person could put his faith in Mo...Snow, I suppose a person <i>could</i> put his faith in Mohammed, Astarte, or Sun Myung Moon as in Jesus, but to what avail? We have free will to put faith in whatever or whomever we wish, but only one of those ever said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by Me." (So he was either who he presented himself as: son of God, or he was a lunatic, not a "Great Teacher" -- paraphrasing C.S. Lewis here).<br /><br />I have a slightly different twist on Jesus' words than your average evangelical diehard. One possible interpretation is that whoever discovers in the end that he has come to Father God will also discover that it was through or by His Son, Jesus, despite what route the person may have thought he or she was or was not taking. That is, it is by Jesus consciously or it is by Jesus unconsciously. Repeating certain words over and over does not get us there, and not repeating certain words over and over does not prevent us from getting there. Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks upon the heart. (Truth in arguing: that last sentence in context refers to the prophet Samuel's choice of David over the other sons of Jesse to be king if Israel in Old Testament times, but hey, "out of context" works for me sometimes!) <br /><br />I also realize that among the Church of Christ folks back in Mississippi, the entire previous paragraph might be considered heresy of the highest sort. Thank God neither you nor I have to please the Church of Christ folks back in Mississippi.rhymeswithplaguehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10870439618129001633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-54744888703792387602010-06-17T11:29:10.464-07:002010-06-17T11:29:10.464-07:00Strayer, I don't usually "allow" tot...Strayer, I don't usually "allow" totally off topic comments no matter who they're from, but yours will give me the chance to introduce you as a fellow infidel who is far nicer than myself. So, to those who read this, Strayer spends her life rescuing abused and abandoned cats without compensation despite the fact that she's dirt-poor. She is forever crawling under houses and through filth-strewn buildings to catch cats, frequently injuring herself in the process. Naturally, she can't afford medical care. Her furniture--and sometimes her appliances--are other people's throw aways and she lives in a small rental in a rundown neighborhood. I know that some of you truly believe that she's going to burn in hell because she doesn't love Jesus, yet she has more compassion in her toenails than most of us have in our entire bodies, and she does more to alleviate suffering in a week than most of us do in a decade. How you can consider a God who would condemn Strayer to be worthy of your worship, I don't know.<br /><br />As to your question, Strayer, Peggy and I talk a lot about getting a cat when the dogs die (our heeler is 12.5, and our schnauzer 10.5). The problem with getting one now is that we both have a strong suspicion that it would drive the schnauzer completely out of his mind because he is completely and utterly obsessed with cats and squirrels--and I don't exaggerate. Of course, if he lived with one, he would hopefully get used to it, but we don't think so, and while it's still little, he could even kill it. As for me being a dog person, I see a lot of good in dogs and cats. I'm listening to an audio book entitled "Animals Make Us Human" by Temple Grandin, and when I got to the cat section, I thought of you and hoped you would be able to get it.<br /><br />Rhymes said: " If it could be explained (rationally or irrationally) there would be no need for faith."<br /><br />I know you read everything, Rhymes. You're a "follower" to kill for. As to your point about faith, this still leaves me to wonder why a person couldn't just as well put his faith in Mohammed, Astarte, or Sun Myung Moon as in Jesus. According to my childhood church, God would lead anyone who truly sought him anywhere in the world to the Church of Christ, but this would have to mean that most people who truly sought him just happened to live bunched together in the American South.<br /><br />Kylie, thank you!Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-43932000795800000322010-06-17T05:02:54.787-07:002010-06-17T05:02:54.787-07:00snow,
i read everything you writesnow,<br />i read everything you writekyliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08964475783207438103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-90815559806618291542010-06-17T04:22:11.499-07:002010-06-17T04:22:11.499-07:00Just for the record, I read every word you write a...Just for the record, I read every word you write and every word in the comments. If I don't always respond to everything, it may be (a) I'm overwhelmed by the sheer volume or (b) I recognize that arguing is futile because we each have our own opinions (and who wants to keep going around in circles anyway?).<br /><br />Upstream you told Kylie "it's exactly the kind of faith that Job displayed and that Christ said was essential." Yes. That's the whole point. If it could be explained (rationally or irrationally) there would be no need for faith. Faith is <i>the substance of things we hope for, the evidence of things not seen</i>. We can't put them under a microscope; we can't look at them through a telescope. A hungry man just eats, he doesn't demand to examine the individual nutrients and to understand fully the digestive process first. In that direction lies starvation within arm's reach of the banquet table.rhymeswithplaguehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10870439618129001633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-22979086577492642692010-06-17T00:14:49.985-07:002010-06-17T00:14:49.985-07:00Snow, do you need a kitten? There was this young ...Snow, do you need a kitten? There was this young orange feral female, I got fixed a few weeks back and returned to a trailer park. She was lactating at spay. So tonight, I go over to catch others, and they tell me the orange female is moving her kittens desperately every day. There's no water out for the cats, rarely food, people into drugs, drinking, that stuff. Suddenly, I turn around, and that young mother cat has brought them to me, and deposited the four tiny kittens near my car, then moved off. She couldn't do it. Couldn't take care of them, knew I would. I took them. Stuffed them in my purse. They are darn cute, four weeks old, very dyhydrated, two orange boys, two orange girls. Want one, Snow? I know you're a dog person, but these are pocket kittens--tiny. They would turn you to our side, the cat people side, but more importantly, they'd make you laugh a lot. I'm pretty sure they're agnostics, if you want to give them a tag of that sort. You'd love them.Strayerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08124298302997708537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-7497007249537249352010-06-16T19:56:14.217-07:002010-06-16T19:56:14.217-07:00All Consuming said: " I'm in awe of the m...All Consuming said: " I'm in awe of the mental energy you put into both your posts on this subject and the comments that result from them."<br /><br />Thank you. I put what seems to me to be an inordinate amount of time into thinking and writing, but I enjoy it from the standpoint of sharing my thoughts with others (and hearing theirs in response), and because writing helps me to clarify my thoughts. I would prefer writing to talking any day.<br /><br />Matawheeze said: "What we believe is so personal as to make it difficult to describe/share..."<br /><br />I wonder why you and I are on the opposite ends of the spectrum here. I think that if people are unable to articulate what they think and why they think it, ESPECIALLY in regard to their personal beliefs, then they're living pretty superficially, at least in regard to the area that is under consideration.<br /><br />Kylie said: "you have referred to my comment"<br /><br />And I apologize. I should have included you in the conversation instead of talking about you--in your presence, as it were--to someone else. I am truly sorry. I got too caught up in the logic of what I was trying to say to take your feelings into consideration.<br /><br />Kylie said: "i want connection, as you do, but it's not happening with this subject"<br /><br />It has been intense, maybe moreso for me since you are only talking about it with one person, whereas it is the only topic on my blog at the moment. I said somewhere up the page that if I were to ever quit blogging, it might because of this subject because I can spend hours putting everything I've got into it without even knowing if more than a fraction of my readers bother to read what I wrote. Even when people respond, few of them respond to anything I said, so I wonder if they just read enough to tell that we disagree, and then proceeded right on down to the comment section. It's an undeservedly cynical thought, perhaps, but it has come to me more than once.<br /><br />Again, Kylie, I am so sorry for my thoughtlessness toward you. In regard to my thoughts about your faith, as Rhymes said, "We can just agree to disagree." Sometimes, it must come down to that, but I want you to know that, in criticizing your position, I don't mean to criticize you personally. This might sound like too fine a distinction for you to make sense of, but I'm real clear on it in my own mind. I hold you in high regard; truly, I do.Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-18949938340137761352010-06-16T19:32:20.904-07:002010-06-16T19:32:20.904-07:00Marion said: "There's so little mystery l...Marion said: "There's so little mystery left in life, that I'm drawn to the mystical side of Christianity."<br /><br />The issues I raised go beyond mystery/mysticism in my mind. I can well imagine that a believer might find it rewarding to meditate upon the meaning of the Eucharist or the proverbial question of how many angels can stand upon the head of a pin, but to ponder whether God exists and whether he deserves our worship if he does exist is another matter. As for there being little left in life that is mysterious, I would offer that there is as much as there ever was since everything we learn opens up new avenues to explore.<br /><br />Hi, Bernie.<br /><br />Plague, I haven't looked up your verses yet.<br /><br />Strayer said: "Hey how come it's the infidel putting her time and money helping me catch and fix my cats when you guys, my churchmates won't but should be?"<br /><br />Churches have little if any interest in animal welfare or in environmental issues so far as I'm aware. I suppose some liberal groups might make a statement about good stewardship from time to time, but the Bible clearly takes the stand that we were put here to serve God, and everything else was put here for us to use. We're definitely not fellow travelers with other species as the Bible sees it, and this is another of the big problems I have with it.<br /><br />Kylie said: "i dont have the answers but i believe what i do so theres not much more to say."<br /><br />I was critical of this statement further up the page, yet it's exactly the kind of faith that Job displayed and that Christ said was essential. The problem, as I see it, is that followers of any religion might say the same thing, and with reason and evidence out the window, so to speak, there is no way whatsoever to examine truth claims. Is there?<br /><br />Rhymes said: "Mankind has spent millenia not understanding God's ways."<br /><br />When if ever does doubt get to be a deal breaker in your mind? True, a person can say, "The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord," to everything that happens, but doesn't this throw you back to the sort of faith Kylie wrote of, and do you have any thoughts what I wrote to her in response?<br /><br />Geek said: "As for the question of God's existence..I am far too immature and inexperienced to give a definite answer."<br /><br />When I was about your age, I bought a set of Robert Ingersolls's writings from the widow of a black fundamentalist preacher, and they opened up a whole new world of thought for me because, prior to reading them, EVERYTHING I had ever heard or read about religion came from believers. I still wonder from time to time why the heck that preacher had those books, and what use he made of them.Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-1576353723077528132010-06-16T15:20:12.459-07:002010-06-16T15:20:12.459-07:00snowy,
you have referred to my comment and talked ...snowy,<br />you have referred to my comment and talked about being afraid to dig deep and find nothing and maybe in my case you are right. i can only say that my spiritual endeavours bring comfort and make me a better person. ultimately, if i am experiencing the placebo effect i dont mind.<br />what i am starting to worry about here is that i want connection, as you do, but it's not happening with this subject and the longer we try the more the gulf seems to be widening......kyliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08964475783207438103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-44233398266667546512010-06-16T11:41:35.727-07:002010-06-16T11:41:35.727-07:00Tiffany said: "I don't think you should s...Tiffany said: "I don't think you should stop talking about the subject matter that is so obviously important to you simply because some are offended."<br /><br />I have sometimes thought that if anything would make me quit blogging altogether, it would be this subject. Few people appear to give any thought to what I have to say, and that's assuming they even read it before they respond. As Kylie (somewhere below) wrote, "i dont have the answers but i believe what i do so theres not much more to say." This is faith at work. Show me where its virtue lies. Tell me why God would prefer that we worship him out of ignorance. All I can think of it that it's we humans who extol unsubstantiated belief because we are afraid that if we go too deep, we will find that there's nothing there.<br /><br />I don't need people to agree with me, but I do long for a connection beyond our beliefs. Some of the responses to this post show more thought and openness than much of what I have received, and I am gratified by that. <br /><br />Lorraina said: "if anyone is offended they should be ashamed as this is a free country after all."<br /><br />I believe that freedom within a given country--and even within a given area within a country--is always relative, and is dependent both upon the laws and public opinion. Atheists--and others--in America face persecution everyday. And remember, we are all taxed to support religion, either directly or indirectly through having to make up for what religious groups don't pay. I would object to religion far less if it really were nothing more than a personal matter as so many claim.<br /><br />Nollyposh said: "Rather it [God] is that intangible part within each of us that inspires us, that gives us our humanity towards each other, that is our creativity..."<br /><br />Why call human virtue God? <br /><br />Nollyposh said: "Do you also believe that...in death you will simply cease to be? And being an atheist does this mean that you are completely comfortable with this? ...What do you think of ghosts and spiritual encounters and/etc... Are people who have them deluded? What about those who have such encounters who are well (emotionally) and non-believers in such things?"<br /><br />No, Nollyposh, I don't believe we live after we die. I don't know enough about the human brain to explain why some people see, and even talk to, ghosts, but I don't think they're necessarily insane anymore than I think most religious people are necessarily insane. As for nonbelievers who believe in ghosts, I don't know of any. I do know that nonbelievers have experienced NDEs and had their world views unchanged by them. As for my comfort level with death, please refer to my last post, somewhere within the first third of it.Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-73403737404298345422010-06-16T08:41:10.884-07:002010-06-16T08:41:10.884-07:00Glad to hear you are leaving the religious stuff, ...Glad to hear you are leaving the religious stuff, at least for a while. What we believe is so personal as to make it difficult to describe/share and prolonged attempts become their own sort of preaching - though you do it well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-92199753709003893782010-06-16T07:05:32.855-07:002010-06-16T07:05:32.855-07:00As ever I'm in awe of the mental energy you pu...As ever I'm in awe of the mental energy you put into both your posts on this subject and the comments that result from them. I always enjoy reading them even if I have to do it in short bursts due to my own energy crisis at the moment. xxAll Consuminghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03089119991474852732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23830899.post-9275061060512050022010-06-16T06:18:27.066-07:002010-06-16T06:18:27.066-07:00I haven't read all the comments yet, but I'...I haven't read all the comments yet, but I'll come back to do so. I'd be thinking and reflecting more about your posts at this time since I am taking Anthropology of Christianities (which still disappoints me because it's supposed to be Comparative Religion). I'll just say for now that I agree with what you say about religion. I, myself, have seen too much hypocrisy with my own two eyes. As for the question of God's existence, I don't know if I can answer that right now. I am far too immature and inexperienced to give a definite answer. But surely, I'll be ruminating on it quite more.<br /><br />Hope you're doing well.Kerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17146666763404548871noreply@blogger.com