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Peggy is going to have back surgery for two slipped lumbar disks and one extrusion (the inside of the disk is being squeezed out of the disk). It's her third surgery ever (I'm up to around twenty), and the other two weren't as scary.
Peggy's back started hurting her out of the blue two months ago, but she wouldn't go to the doctor until she was fighting back tears. Then came an MRI, steroids, and a two week wait to see a surgeon (Carmina Angeles). I told Carmina that I knew Peggy to be in a lot of pain because Peggy is in the habit of hiding her pain, but she has been unable to hide this. Carmina said she's seen grown men cry and grown women crawl into her office begging for surgery when their MRIs looked like Peggy's.
Peggy has a friend named W___ who has been in love with her for at least two decades. W___ and I were good friends for years, but when his last marriage failed (he's had five failed relationships in the thirty years we've known him, two of which were marriages), he no longer wanted to be around me. He wouldn't say why, but I suspected that it was because he saw me as a barrier between him and Peggy. I suspected this strongly enough that I wouldn't have stood between him and a cliff-top, yet I couldn't be certain that I was right. When I had my knee replacement last August, he stayed at the hospital for every waking moment (of the three days) that he wasn't at work, and he treated me so lovingly that I came to trust that he wanted to be friends again. When I got out of the hospital and he ignored me completely, I felt hurt and pressed (over three emails) for an explanation. After my third email, he responded with but one word ("Stop"), and I concluded that he hadn't spent all those hours at the hospital in order to support me but rather to support Peggy.
Now that it's Peggy's turn to go into the hospital, I anticipate him wanting to stay with her. I told her that I wouldn't be comfortable with that, and she said that: (1) his welcome would be contingent upon him apologizing for that email; and (2) she won't tell him that she expects such an apology unless he says that he intends to come to the hospital. In other words, she's unwilling to broach the subject of him coming to the hospital, but if he broaches it, she won't demand that he answer my question, but she will demand that he apologize to me for his response. Such an apology wouldn't mean squat to me because all I would take from it would be that W___ was willing to fake an apology in order to stay at the hospital with Peggy. My best guess is that he will either not bring up the subject of coming to the hospital and afterwards not come, or that he will show-up unannounced.
Peggy doesn't plan to tell him when she's going to the hospital in order to avoid the latter scenario, but I'm confident that he will be able to figure it out. If he should simply show up, I'll just bear it the best I can because it certainly wouldn't be a good time for a row, and because I wouldn't see it as my right to tell him to leave. For Peggy's sake, I can but hope he won't come, and this makes me wonder if she's doing right by not telling him upfront what she expects of him if he wants to come. She could, of course, ask the hospital to withhold her room number, but what a sad commentary that would be upon their friendship. In fact, it would be such a sad commentary that it would suggest--to me--that their friendship was damned near dead.
But regardless of what Peggy does, here's my problem: should I try to put aside my feelings, and tell Peggy that I would be okay with him coming to the hospital without offering an apology since his apology would be meaningless to me? While I wouldn't anticipate her changing her mind about demanding that he apologize, this isn't about what she says to him, but about what I say to her. My thought is that, if out of love for her, I were able to put aside my feelings, it might at the very least alleviate some of the tension she must be feeling given that she cares deeply for W___, and that, if circumstances were different, having him there would mean a lot to her.
UPDATE
Peggy
and I hadn't talked about this post until just now (two days after it
was put online). She said that I seem to have misunderstood her in that,
even if I said it was okay for W___ to come to the hospital, she
wouldn't want him there unless he apologized to me because she
recognizes that his presence would (1) cause me unhappiness, and (2)
would make it harder for me to be emotionally present for her. She was
also concerned that my post might be interpreted as portraying her as
being on the fence about whom she wants to be her life's partner,
although she is firm in her commitment to me alone.
25 comments:
The way I think about these things is that you don't need to say anything at all. Peggy knows what you want and what she chooses to do with that knowledge is her choice.
I had a treasured friend who was probably in love with me for many years but I eventually realised that allowing him to be around was just giving him a false sense of hope and stopping him from moving on with his life so I cut him loose. I was gentle at first but he reappeared so then I was brutal. I hope he is out there and happy these days
So sorry that Peggy is in such pain. Hopefully, the back treatment will prove highly successful.
Kylie's above comment is a sensible one. Cannot improve on that. I am sure that this W person has had enough troubles in the past, judging by his failed partnerships and maybe has enough nous to not risk losing the friendship of Peggy by turning up to the hospital uninvited, so to speak.
Wishing you both a speedy return to a pain-free 2018.
Tricky.
I am inclined to agree with Kylie that it is Peggy's call. Just the same, I would resent it if my partner in similar circumstances welcomed the third party.
Much more importantly I hope the surgery goes well and relieves Peggy's pain quickly.
I hope Peggy has as painless a time as is possible with a speedy recovery. As to W__ if it were me in your shoes I would allow him to visit for pre-determined amounts of time each day. If you have no way of asking him to leave without it causing discomfort to Peggy you could have a nurse to come in and offer a medical reason why he must go home now. It is a part of her job to see that Peggy is comfortable. Then Peggy would not have to worry (adding to her pain) and you could feel (reasonably) comfortable during the time he is there. Good luck.
peggy has always come across as being a saint by your descriptions so my heart goes out to her.
i would call W and make it crystal clear that peggy has enough stress in life and his appearance would only make things worse. tell him this is non-negotiable.
my doctor told me to start thinking about knee replacement surgery. i'm going to delay as long as possible and hope modern science can make the procedure easier. (and no one in the family has stepped up and offered to walk the dog and cut the grass while i recover)
So much good advice ... I cannot improve upon it. Just know that we're pulling for Peggy and hope the surgery cures all.
I would have hoped Peggy would talk to W as he is such a good friend and explain how his behaviour is unnaceptable and causing friction just when the last thing you need is friction. If they're friends she must be able to broach it, out of love for you and him. I genuinley think honesty is the best policy here. She could tell him that she's going into for the op and as he finds it difficult to be honestly nice and kind to you he should wait to hear from her afterwards because she doesn't want you upset. I feel this quite strongly, however you two know the situation better than I. As for an apology, even if you think it would mean nothing, it would be very good for Walt to have to give you one because then he'll know he can't behave like a poilt child over Peggy and behave however he wishes towards you just because he covets her. X
"Peggy knows what you want and what she chooses to do with that knowledge is her choice."
I have choices too. For one thing, I needed her to acknowledge that W___ had treated me badly with that STOP email so that she would understand why things couldn't go on as usual, by which I mean me being willing to occasionally go to his house when we're both invited (of course, he might not invite me again given what he wrote in that email). It's a 45-minute drive to his house (although he stays here in town most of the time due to his job), and I doubt that she will be going much without me except when it snows, and the two of go skiing together. As it is, the only time she regularly sees him is for cards with two other friends of his on Tuesday nights. W___ and Peggy have no alone time together except during ski season, and it's not looking good for that due to her recovery from surgery. There is no sexual relationship. There used to be, but that was a long time ago. Another choice I might have made would be to tell her that she could either have him or me at the hospital, but not both of us. I thought about that, but I couldn't do it because I want to do whatever it takes to make her surgery and recovery go well. Now that she has said she doesn't want him there unless he apologizes, I'm better able to have an open heart about him being there, which is why I'm wondering if I can go so far as to tell her that he's welcome there regardless. I don't think I can, although if things were different between him and me, I would love for him to be there.
"As for an apology, even if you think it would mean nothing, it would be very good for Walt to have to give you one because then he'll know he can't behave like a poilt child over Peggy and behave however he wishes towards you"
This makes sense to me, and I agree.
"I am sure that this W person has had enough troubles in the past, judging by his failed partnerships and maybe has enough nous to not risk losing the friendship of Peggy by turning up to the hospital uninvited, so to speak."
Peggy is unusual in his life (when it comes to intimate relationships with women) because she's sane. He has never introduced her and me to any of his other women but what we knew immediately that those relationships would fail, the women's mental instability being THAT obvious. This brings up the question of why a man (a trained mental health counselor no less) would consistently choose to have relationships with women who were incapable of maintaining relationships. Is he THAT blind, or does he really think he can change them (to fix them, as it were)? And why, in Peggy's case, would his one relationship with a mentally healthy woman be with a woman who was married and who gave him no encouragement that she would ever get a divorce? There's something deeply troubling about W___. He is smart, exudes self-confidence, is personable to the point of being charismatic, and is generous to a fault, yet he consistently makes choices that bring him enormous pain, not to mention financial loss, as with his last divorce. He is also the poster boy for glaring inconsistencies. For instance, he has described himself as an anarchist for as long as I've known him, and as such, he claims to abhor any and all compulsory relationships, most notably taxation, yet he works for the city, which means that 100% of his income comes from taxation. Likewise, in consistence with his claim to being an anarchist, he believes that there should be no social restrictions upon the way people behave short of thievery and assault. In his mind, hardcore porn upon billboards would be fine, in the name of freedom. Likewise, kids in school could use four letter words all day long, in the name of freedom. Sex in public? Why not, in the name of freedom. He would even regard allowing people to starve to death on the street as a lesser evil than forcing everyone else (through taxation) to feed them. Wasting natural resources is likewise acceptable, in the name of freedom (he argues that the problem isn't waste but overpopulation, thereby absolving himself of any responsibility for mitigating the problem). Think Ayn Rand, and there, largely, goes Walt. Such stances and contradictions have caused me to lose a lot of respect for Walt. It would be bad enough if he were consistent in his beliefs, but my regard is lower still because I regard him as an unapologetic hypocrite. None of this matters much (if any) to Peggy because Peggy (not entirely, but much more than I), relates to her friends on the basis of the things they share while ignoring the things they don't share. I wish I could do that, but I can't. I'll never feel as close as I once did to a friend who came back from Pompeii with a stolen piece of mosaic, and I'll never feel as close to as I once did to those friends who illegally copy music and videos.
"I would resent it if my partner in similar circumstances welcomed the third party."
If I felt strongly enough about him not being there that I told her she had to choose, and she chose him, it would be a serious matter indeed, but I never got to that point simply because it would have seemed unloving for me to throw down the gauntlet on the occasion of a serious surgery as opposed to, by way of comparison, going to a movie or a party. I suppose that if Peggy said she wanted both of us to be there, we would have swapped out so that we wouldn't be there at the same time. THAT, I could live with, but I can't imagine that it would be good for Peggy to have both of us with her at the same time given the tension that he and I would both feel given that he's determined to wipe me from his life without even trying to work through whatever it is that he has against me. Even if the problem is his desire to have Peggy to himself, he must surely realize that he's going to have less of her if he treats me badly, whereas to respectfully bring it out in the open would only be to admit the obvious.
Damn, Snow, Peggy's fixin' to have MAJOR surgery and if that asshole, W, *really* cared one iota for Peggy, even as just a friend, he would pull his head out of his own selfish ass and consider what is best for Peggy! The LAST thing Peggy needs is any kind of unnecessary drama right now. I'm on Team Snow all the way...Protect & care for your Peggy because you're her husband...and W sounds like he does not have your best interests at heart. Tell him to visit AFTER surgery, when Peggy will obviously be less stressed and hopefully better. Sending love, prayers and best wishes for a successful surgery and speedy recovery for Peggy. xo
A trained mental health counselor? For the State of Oregon? He sounds crazy from your description. Kris
W is being a prick in my opinion. Peggy is married and he has expressed interest in her in the past. That's nuts he'd intrude on her marriage or make things difficult when she is going through of all things surgery.
I have no idea how you should react if he tromps into the hospital.
"I would have hoped Peggy would talk to W as he is such a good friend and explain how his behaviour is unnaceptable and causing friction"
She told him that she thought he had treated me badly, but she didn't demand that he do anything about it. If they were seeing one another frequently, I would feel hurt that she didn't make such a demand, but they usually only see one another once a week, and that's at a card game that includes other people. As you know, we used to have an open relationship, and what I learned from it was that it's impossible for one of us to be really intimate with another person when that person treats the other of us badly. I've certainly had women in my life who treated Peggy with coldness and disrespect, and, to my shame, I maintained those relationships despite Peggy's unhappiness, so for me to throw a fit now over someone who is treating me badly--someone who loves Peggy and is loved by Peggy, although there's no sex in the relationship--wouldn't be fair. In other words, I owe to her to give her the kind of patience that she gave me. I am clearly in no position to make demands. These things do eventually work themselves out, and if nothing else, this hospitalization will demonstrate to Walt that his behavior toward me is keeping Peggy at a distance. By forcing her to choose between us, she is guaranteed to choose me. If she chose him in such a situation, I would be very upset indeed (no, I would never have chosen one of my girlfriends over her), but as it is, I'm simply a bit uncomfortable. All I really need is to know that I come first, and I do know that just as when it came right down to it, Peggy always came first when I had other women in my life.
"She could tell him that she's going into for the op and as he finds it difficult to be honestly nice and kind to you he should wait to hear from her afterwards because she doesn't want you upset."
I think she's hoping that not telling him when she is going to have the surgery will communicate her desire that he not be there. Whether this will work, I have no idea. It's not how I would handle it, but, again, I don't think it's my place to give Peggy ultimatums about much of anything. If she were doing something so egregious as kicking the cats, it would be ultimatum time, but that's really the kind of thing it would take (and, no, I don't mean to imply that Peggy would ever kick a cat no matter how frustrating the cat's behavior).
"As for an apology, even if you think it would mean nothing, it would be very good for W___ to have to give you one because then he'll know he can't behave like a poilt child..."
I agree. I don't expect him to apologize, but I wish he would. W___ doesn't think like normal people. I often have the feeling that he's talking to me in Chinese because that's just how much sense his words make. I'll give an example. Although he's a trained counselor, he works as a bus driver, and this means that he has to take an occasional physical. His last physical indicated that he might have sleep apnea, and he was told to undergo a sleep study. He said he wouldn't do it because, as an anarchist, he doesn't believe in coercion, and what the school district was telling him to do was coercive. Well, he pays taxes; other people's taxes pays his salary; and he had just taken a work physical; all of which were coercive. Another factor that he should have considered was, of course, the safety of the children, but that wasn't important to him compared to his resistance to what he saw as the school district's attempt to deny him his freedom. Despite a quasi-intellectual veneer, he's guided by emotion instead of principal, and this puts him beyond rational argument. If it occurs to him on his own that he treated me badly, then he might or might not apologize, but nothing anyone can say has the least power to point his thinking in a direction that he didn't arrive at on his own. He likes to talk to other people about his problems, but all that I've ever seen coming from it was a validation (in his mind) that he was already on the right track.
"A trained mental health counselor? For the State of Oregon? He sounds crazy from your description."
I wouldn't go to him for help, but then I'm horrified by the thought of anyone going for help to any of the other counselors I've ever known. I would guess that most people go into counseling in order to help themselves, but I can't tell that they succeed. To me, it's an extraordinarily strange occupation. I would even say a rip-off usually. In W___'s case, he exudes self-confidence, if not charisma, and I think these qualities encouraged him to think he could make a go of it. As it turned out, he needed money (to support his last wife and her two children) too much to give his new profession enough time, this being an area that's overrun with counselors, which means that it takes a long time to build up a clientele.
"Tell him to visit AFTER surgery, when Peggy will obviously be less stressed and hopefully better."
Thank you, Marion, for all your kind words. I won't be telling W___ anything because it is not my place and because I took the word "Stop" to mean that he didn't want to hear from me at any time about any subject. Peggy will handle W___ as she thinks best, and I'm confident that he will honor her clearly expressed wishes. Of course, she's not being direct with him, so I just figure that if he does show up at the hospital that I'll behave courteously because I agree with you that it wouldn't be a time for drama.
"Peggy is married and he has expressed interest in her in the past."
I've mentioned it many times over the years, but I should say again that Peggy and I had an open relationship (and even a group marriage) for a couple of decades, so W___'s love for Peggy was acceptable when it started, and it's acceptable now (though sex is no longer a possibility) as far as either of us is concerned. It's painful, certainly, but I don't hold it against him, and if he and I were getting along, I would even find joy in whatever good the two of them share.
UPDATE
Peggy and I hadn't talked about this post until just now (two days after it was put online). She said that I seem to have misunderstood her in that, even if I said it was okay for W___ to come to the hospital, she wouldn't want him there unless he apologized to me because she recognizes that his presence would (1) cause me unhappiness, and (2) would make it harder for me to be emotionally present for her. She was also concerned that my post might be interpreted as portraying her as being on the fence about whom she wants to be her life's partner, although she is firm in her commitment to me alone.
You two seem to have such a solid open relationship. Best of luck to Peggy in surgery and I hope her pain is relieved. I should have mentioned that in my first comment. No matter who does or doesn't come to the hospital, first and foremost is Peggy and the fact she is getting surgery that hopefully will make her life much better. Best wishes, Peggy, and if W comes, I hope he brings you something good to eat. Hospital food is so dreary.
Well, bless Peggy's heart for being such a faithful, common sense woman. I agree with everything she said. I'd give my right arm to have a husband like you. You're caring, sensitive, patient, kind and loving.
(On your comment at my blog: I was amazed that you seldom get snow way up there! And I laughed because I've also memorized "The Raven" & "Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening". It was really weird in a good way to get a snowfall here in the Deep South in early December. Even New Orleans got some.) I'm so glad things all worked out for you and Peggy. Keep us posted on her progress. Love & Hugs!! xo
Definitenly a little strange on this fellow's part. Bordering on mental instability.
First of all, W___ asked Peggy last night when she was going into the hospital, so she had to tell him that she didn't want him there. He said he understood. He also said he loves me, and that he would like things to be good between us, but he doesn't know how (implying that actually telling me what his problem is might make things even worse than they are now!). I've heard this kind of thing from him before. What it means to me is that he doesn't believe that people can work together to repair a relationship, but that he must be the one to find a solution and when (and if) he does, he will announce that solution to the other person. It implies (to me) that the problem isn't with him but with the other person, a person who is unable to handle the truth of what his/her problem is, making it W___'s place to protect him/her. Meanwhile, the other person is left clueless in the face of what I consider the ultimate condescension. It is W___'s way of owning the relationship by taking all power (except for the power to leave for good) from the other person. It also robs the relationship of trust because even if W___ comes back and things are resolved, there is no reason to think he won't do the same thing again when things get hard for him. Part of his anarchist philosophy is that no one should ever do anything that they don't want to do in the moment, and this means that he doesn't see himself as owing anything to the other person. At the same time, he's probably the most generous person I've ever known.
"You two seem to have such a solid open relationship."
It's not open now due to a lack of interest on my part and a refusal to continue to have an open relationship on Peggy's part. I have no idea how many open marriages survive, but I can attest to the fact that openness puts a tremendous strain on a marriage. Part of the reason for this is that the person who's having a relationship with the married person often tries to win him or her away from the marriage, and so the married person has to ask himself/herself if he/she wants to leave. Thankfully, neither Peggy nor I ever came close to wanting to leave. Another problem occurs when the married person truly loves the outside person and is heart-broken when the relationship ends. A third problem occurs when the outside person is only in the relationship because he/she thinks having a relationship with a married person means safety from the demands of emotional intimacy. If the married person really wants emotional intimacy, this can lead to heartache.
Although our marriage was open both ways, it was my need that got it started, and when I say "need," I don't exaggerate. Thankfully, age has abolished that need. While I'm not dead to sexual attraction, I'm no longer controlled by it. Because of this and because of my struggles with depression, I suspect that few women would have put up with me, whereas many men would have been happy to have Peggy as a wife, her worse fault, as I see it, being perfectionism in regard to some things, with most of them being things that I am responsible for getting done.
"On your comment at my blog: I was amazed that you seldom get snow way up there!"
Oregon is an interesting state in regard to climate. Two-thirds of the state is desert. The tippy tops of the High Cascades have an arctic climate. The southwestern mountains are hot in summer but comfortable in summer. The Coast contains rain forests. Thanks to its proximity to the Pacific Ocean, the Willamette Valley seldom gets really hot or really cold, it gets no rain in summer, nothing but rain in winter, and snowfall is unusual. As that moisture laden Pacific Ocean air moves eastwards in winter, it hits the Cascades and drops its moisture in the form of snow. This means that you can leave the soggy valley and be putting chains on your tires in less than an hour. You can also leave the valley and be in snow in the hilly neighborhoods that are within the city limits of Eugene, so most of the people who live in these hills have studded tires. I loathe studded tires because they sound like a car driving on gravel, and it fools me every time.
"Definitenly a little strange on this fellow's part. Bordering on mental instability."
I think of craziness as a matter of degree with most, if not all, of us being at least a little crazy. Craziness is like with Peggy's MRI, the truth being (in the words of a medical assistant) that, "No one has a normal MRI."
"I'd give my right arm to have a husband like you. You're caring, sensitive, patient, kind and loving."
Thank you. You seem desirably mysterious to me, and I have often wondered what you are like in person due to your interest in poetry. I wonder how Peggy would rate me in regard to the virtues you listed. I think she would agree with everything but patient. I will stay at something until I get it done, and I don't tend to get impatient with things and cats, but I am very impatient with myself and other people.
"my doctor told me to start thinking about knee replacement surgery. i'm going to delay as long as possible and hope modern science can make the procedure easier. (and no one in the family has stepped up and offered to walk the dog and cut the grass..."
The procedure is supposed to be less traumatic than it used to be, but it's still major surgery. Maybe the components will continue to improve, but it's still going to require a lot of soft tissue damage to install them, so I wouldn't wait a long time on that score. After fourth months, my knee is still swollen, still hurts, I still limp badly for ten or twenty steps after getting up from a chair, and I still stay off the knee as much as possible so that it won't swell so badly that I can't do things that need to be done. Such things make me feel old and frail. The surgeon says it could take a year for optimum benefit. If it's not better then, he'll do a second surgery to break up scar tissue. I think I need an exercise bike. A major reason that Peggy and I now have cats is that cats don't have to be walked or bathed, and they use a litter box. When a person is infirm, these are tremendous virtues.
An interesting predicament. I truly don't know how I would cope if I were Peggy, or if I were you. I guess I will take the easy way out and go with Kylie.
I have sometimes wondered how I would survive an 'open' marriage. That seems strange given that I have been in marriages where we both 'cheated' on each other. I still deal with guilt in my old age... and worry, that given my guilt today, would I still do it all over again if we could turn back the clock?
Also, in my old age, I am so grateful to have NO desire for a physical relationship anymore, but do truly enjoy the friendships I have, especially with folks who are intelligent.
I don't know if you are trying to protect W's identity but a few times, you actually called him by what may be his name or maybe it isn't, rhymes with salt.
He does sound like a needy, dysfunctional creep that neither of you need in your life IMHO.
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