I commit the unpardonable sin


Unofficial Motto of the Church of Christ
Some basics: The fundamentalist Church of Christ is congregationally ruled, and its beliefs and practices differ by time and location. The following is based upon my experiences in Mississippi and Georgia during the 1950s and '60s, places in which my father's father and his father had been preachers. 

The churches of my boyhood: (1) regarded the Church of Christ as the "one true church" and explained its actual 19th century origin as a resurfacing following two millennia of persecution; (2) boasted of having no written statement of faith; (3) held that salvation was through a combination of faith and works; (4) believed that members of other churches and religions were destined for eternal agony; (5) practiced baptism by immersion; (6) forbade women preachers and (in Mississippi) women Sunday school teachers and announcement makers; (7) celebrated "the Lord's Supper" every Sunday; (8) boasted of studying "the Bible only" rather than books about the Bible; (9) taught that "the way of salvation is so simple that even a child can understand it;" (10) held that all doctrinal mistakes come from willful disobedience and doom the person who makes them to hell

(11) regarded political involvement as un-Christian; (12) held that all lawyers are hell-bound liars; (13) disapproved of Masonry and other secret organizations; (14) believed that divorced people who remarry commit adultery; (15) denied the intellectual reality of atheism ("The fool hath said in his heart that there is no God);" (16) regarded instrumental music during worship services as sinful (people weren't even allowed to bring a piano into the church for a wedding for fear non-church attendees might think the church used musical instruments all the time); (17) denounced Christmas as a "pagan holiday;" (18) kept no membership roles because only God knows who is and isn't a member of his church and; (19) kept no tithing roles because the promise of future income would eliminate the necessity of faith; (20) believed that sincere seekers of God in all places and at all times would be led by God to a Church of Christ; (21) Churches of Christ that disagreed with other Churches of Christ claimed that these other churches were "false churches" and were therefore doomed to hell; (22) some churches forbade the use of more than one glass for communion because when he instituted "the Lord's Supper," Christ said "this cup" rather than "these cups."

Although people (ourselves included) commonly referred to our church as the Church of Christ, its official name was given in the plural because that's how it appears in the Bible. This meant that instead of saying, "I belong to Johnson Grove Church of Christ," I was supposed to say, "I belong to Johnson Grove Churches of Christ." Another example of literalism turned fanaticism comes from the occasional ministerial debates I heard that ran along the following line and that, coincidentally, related to my own history. To whit: the Bible says that a person has to be baptized to be saved; when I was twelve, I asked to be baptized during a revival at a church without a baptistry; I was taken to another church for baptism. 

The debate question was this: if someone dies in a wreck on the way to be baptized, will he go to heaven or hell? The invariable conclusion was that he would go to hell because he failed to meet one of the requirements of salvation. Small wonder that even the literalistic Southern Baptists considered the Church of Christ nutty, not that we cared about their opinion because they weren't even Christians in our view.

The most painful event of my boyhood occurred one day when I was thirteen and running my paper route. I had been struggling for two years to hold onto my faith, and in exasperation, I said to God at a spot in the street that I still remember, "I don't know how you can expect me to trust you when you failed your own son" (as he hung on the cross, Christ had uttered, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"). I don't know how many seconds passed before it occurred to me that I might have committed the unpardonable sin (a sin that is mentioned in the Bible but, strange to say, never defined), but I lived in terror for years.

The prospect of telling anyone what I had done seemed unthinkable, yet I became so desperate for reassurance that, a few years later, I went to the country home of Bro Buford Stewart (we called our preachers Brother because the Bible didn't authorize the word reverend) the man who baptized me. Once there, my courage failed, so I suffered for several more years until I had so little remaining faith that I stopped worrying and started hating. First, I hated the Church of Christ for the needless pain I had endured because I trusted it; I hated the people who abandoned me when I left the church; and I hated the deity that it represented, not because I still believed in him, but because of how much I had suffered because of what I had been told about him. From my earliest memory, I had been made to feel so afraid of God that I would sometimes hide under the bed in tearful terror after a "fire and brimstone" sermon (something that the Church of Christ was big on), and I now concluded that this made me a victim of emotional abuse.

Some men my age remember the War in Vietnam--I remember living in daily fear of eternal hell. I have been told that, had I grown up with a kindly image of God in some other church, I wouldn't have become an atheist, but all churches worship a deity that is depicted as all-powerful and all-loving yet one that created an imperfect world and that continues to remain passive in the face of an infinity of suffering and death, much of it committed in his name. Even if a deity should exist, I believe that we commit an act of cowardice and even immorality when we profess to love him for "sending his only begotten son to die for our sins," when it is he who is in need of our forgiveness. We might as well whitewash shit and serve it up as bread.

22 comments:

Elephant's Child said...

Oh Snow. I am sorry - and would agree that you were the victim of emotional abuse.
By those standards I am certainly doomed to hell. If I believed I would take some consolation in the fact that many of the people dearest to me will also be found in those firey pits.
I am very grateful that my parents let us decide about religion. I didn't attend Sunday School - though would have been supported if I wanted to, nor go to church. Any church. And spent religious instruction lessons in the library after a year or two.

angela said...

How many people today are screwed up because of religion
I don’t mean the obvious ones, who kill, or abuse, or become racist bigots because of their religion. I mean
Ordinary people who you wouldn’t pick as having issues because of their religion but like you have never said anything of their anxieties because of the fear of adding to their list of “sins”
I know I am one

Marion said...

Snow, are you punking us? First sex & now religion? Let me guess, politics is next?

I survived total neglect from the age of 5, extreme poverty, abuse of every variety, bullying, alcoholic/slutty mother, sexually abusive stepfather and MORE yet I still cling to my early faith in spite of many hell-fire and brimstone sermons by men. Yes, men. God spoke to me through the Bible and gave me hope. I have cursed God in my pain (sort of like Jesus, the human side, did on the cross) and yet I still believe. The big problem with religion is the fact that God uses humans who are ALL imperfect beings.

I respect your right to your opinions & I'm truly sorry for the pain you felt. I still love you & pray for you. xo

kylie said...

I'm so sorry you suffered so many years of fear and at such a young age. That's emotional abuse, no question.

It never occurred to me that we should forgive God but if we view forgiveness as a mechanism for saving ourselves and if we view God as the higher power who allows or disallows events in our lives, then maybe God is the first person we need to forgive.

I don't think there is anything sinful in questioning God, I think that is the mark of a trusting relationship but it is to be expected that you will lose trust if your question is never answered.

rhymeswithplague said...

Your description of the Church(es) of Christ is spot on to what I remember about them in Texas 65 years ago (I am nearly 77). Some people say that it is impossible to commit the unpardonable sin today because they define it as attributing the miracles and works of Jesus Christ to the devil (as the Pharisees did during his lifetime). Jesus defined it, though, as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, who Christians believe is still very much around. As Yul Brynner might say, “Is a puzzlement.” My view is not that Jesus was cursing God from the cross but was quoting Psalm 22, which I recommend reading in the King James Version to get the full Messianic import. Campbell’s quote is somewhat ironic in light of the fact that the CofC do not use the Old Testament in their worship services. It is also my view that there is hope until you draw your last breath, and if I were Roman Catholic and believ d in Purgatory (I’m not and I don’t) there would be hope even beyond death. Snow, it is exhausting to try to respond o your posts because they contain so much, but I shall keep reading them. You ain’t gettin’ rid of me that easily (not that I think you want to — we have a sort of symbiotic relationship going, do we not?)

Snowbrush said...

"I am very grateful that my parents let us decide about religion."

I would have chosen church had I been you because I was born religious. I turned against religion so severely precisely because it had meant so much to me. Only afterwards did I realize how abusive religion is to nonbelievers and members of other faiths.

"How many people today are screwed up because of religion...Ordinary people who you never said anything of their anxieties because of the fear of adding to their list of “sins' I know I am one."

Maybe you should write your own post. I can at least be glad that my church was nowhere near as bad as many. Think about kids who grew up in cults that were so inwardly turned that they grew up knowing little of the outside world and being ill equipped to deal with it if they left, the Amish being a case in point (here in the US, they are legally exempt from sending their kids to school past about age thirteen), and then there are groups that allow their children to die because they think that taking them to the doctor would represent a lack of faith in the power of prayer. Etc.

"First sex & now religion? Let me guess, politics is next?'

Who knows--maybe cats. Our new one is a constant joy to Peggy, Brewsky, Ollie, Scully, and myself. I especially like it when he roughhouses with Brewsky. It's a battle of Sage's four pounds versus Brewsky's fifteen. They play really ROUGH, yet I know that Brewsky would never really hurt him, and this trust is so special to me. Yesterday, Peggy said that she actually worries about Sage hurting Brewsky because, while Sage comes close to pulling out all the stops, Brewsky holds back.

Snowbrush said...

"The big problem with religion is the fact that God uses humans who are ALL imperfect beings."

How is it do you think that paltry humans can thwart an all-powerful God unless that God is okay with being thwarted, in which case why call God good? Theodicy is the branch of theology that seeks to explain why a being that is perfect in joy, justice, compassion, power, and wisdom, somehow created and rules over a world that is filled with injustice, cruelty, heartbreak, misery, disease, accidents, and foolishness. Long before I realized that all of the "proofs" of God's existence are open to unanswerable challenges, my observation that God appears powerless against evil (and indeed commanded it in the Old Testament) presented me with a serious stumbling block. I undertook the study of theology in college with the conviction that my questions would be answered, but I instead concluded that the combined result of nearly 2,000 years of theological reflection and study doesn't even pass the straight face test.

"I still love you & pray for you. xo"

I thank you for the love, and you have my blessing in praying for me all you want, but why tell me about it when you surely realize that prayer is not a gift that atheists value? I'll try to come up with some analogies to convey how it strikes me. To tell an atheist that you're praying for him is like buying a Baptist a picture of the "sacred heart" or like inviting a vegan to a steak dinner. Although the Baptist and the vegan might try to look upon such a gift as being inspired by love alone, it would probably be hard to avoid wondering if that's really all there is behind them. The last time I remember this issue coming up was with an New Age, Australian blogger who called herself Nolly Posh. She was dying at the time, and one day she told me that she was praying for me. I suggested that I would prefer that she simply tell me that she was thinking about me, or that she was sending loving thoughts my way, etc, because the word prayer was a problem for me. Her response, as I interpreted it, was that prayer didn't mean to her what it did to me, and that I should reinterpret it accordingly because she really couldn't think of any other word to convey the love what she was trying to communicate. I thought that, well, when your gift isn't working for someone, surely, with a little effort and imagination, you should be able to come up with one that does work rather than expecting them to figure out a way to make it work. So it is that the word prayer--and the gift thereof--is problematic for me.

Snowbrush said...

"It never occurred to me that we should forgive God..."

When I wrote on your religion blog (http://ayarnwithgod.blogspot.com/) about the forced piety of people sitting in church and not being allowed to say that they were really thinking about God, this is the kind of thing I had in mind (I've been worried that you might have thought that I was simply trying to get a rise out of you, which is not something that I would do). As for forgiving God, he is viewed in the Christian religion as creating a species so weak that it succumbed to temptation the very first time it was tempted, so how absurd of him to have created us to be as we are only to turn right around and demand that we beg his forgiveness for being as we are. There's a bit of the drama king in such a god. I view him as a Donald Trump kind of character in that he regularly boasts of his superiority, blames everyone but himself for his mistakes, and says any outrageous thing that pops into his head. I suspect that if the promise of heaven and the fear of hell were taken from the Christian religion, people would be able to admit to themselves that they really don't like their deity. Maybe I project too much in saying this, but I say it in all sincerity.

"I don't think there is anything sinful in questioning God..."

The trouble is that God never answers back, which is what prompted my outburst that day on my paper route. I used to regularly become absolutely livid at God. On the one hand, I was scared to death he would send me to hell, but on the other, I couldn't keep my outrage to myself when I blamed him for letting me down, and there was nothing I could say to him or about him that was over the top given what I was feeling. So, what I'm talking about isn't simply asking questions (although I have never been to a church which welcomed questions that had depth behind them--as opposed to questions about facts, such as asking for the name of the apostle who followed Judas).

Snowbrush said...

"the unpardonable sin... Jesus defined it, though, as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit..."

Whatever that means! If it simply means trash-talking the Holy Spirit, what kind of sense does it make to apply such a severe prohibition of dirty words to only one third of the Godhead--are the Holy Spirit's feelings more easily hurt, and can I really be forgiven for cursing God and Jesus all day long, but if I say one wrong word to the Holy Spirit, I'm toast? I mean, seriously, Rhymes, here you have the one sin that God the Father either cannot or will not forgive, the one sin for which even the blood of Jesus can not or will not atone, and neither Jesus nor the apostles thought it worth their while to tell us how to avoid it, the result being that a thirteen year old kid on his paper route, a kid who probably took his religion more seriously and sought God more determinedly than anyone else he knew, ended up worrying for years that he had inadvertently doomed himself to hell without the possibility of a reprieve?! Does this make even a little sense to you? I should think not. I should think that you will relegate the verses about the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit to the file of so-called "hard verses," verses that will many believe will only be explained in the next world.

"My view is not that Jesus was cursing God from the cross but was quoting Psalm 22..."

Have you encountered the argument that the events in Jesus' life that were supposedly in fulfillment of prophecy were invented, mostly by Matthew and mostly to convince Jews as a community that Jesus was the Messiah? The first hint that there might be a problem with Matthew's account came when he traced Jesus' lineage through his father, Joseph, although Jesus was later said to have been "born of a virgin." In any event, most of the Jewish community rejected Jesus precisely because they considered Matthew's "fulfillment of prophecy" arguments to be invented at worst and strained at best in that he used verses that no one even imagined were supposed to be prophecies and that clearly applied to other things. My memory of running down some of these supposed prophecies occurred years ago, but when I did, I agreed that they didn't prove anything about Jesus but a lot about Matthew's willingness to grasp at straws.

"the CofC do not use the Old Testament in their worship services."

My memory is that the Old Testament was quoted freely during worship services--sometimes by myself on those occasions when I gave short sermons. I was so surprised to hear you say otherwise that I googled, "Does the Church of Christ use the Old Testament in its worship services?" I only looked at two links, and here they are: https://www.onfaith.co/paper/does-the-church-of-christ-use-the-old-testament and https://www.onfaith.co/paper/does-the-church-of-christ-use-the-old-testament.

"You ain’t gettin’ rid of me that easily (not that I think you want to — we have a sort of symbiotic relationship going, do we not?)"

Please allow me to say that I only engage in heterosexual relationships; that I would be extremely sad if you were not in my life (I would be SO sad that when you have a health scare, I worry that you will die); and that I especially love it when you respond to my posts about religion, and that, however much I fail, I make an effort to respond to you in good faith and with respect.

Strayer said...

I had a sleepless night at age 11 I still remember. I could not understand how members of the church and my own parents were so judgmental of others, listened to sermons every Saturday detailing the reasons why you might go to hell, expounded them to others, yet lived in total conflict with the same principles. I knew at that point my entire family and every church member were in fact going to hell. I cried and prayed all night to be relieved of the burden of this knowledge. My conflicts with the religion continued into young adulthood until I realized these religions were fabrications of men and that I wanted to think for myself. I have no guilt whatsoever with my decision. I rarely think of religion other than to feel sorry for those entangled in its impossibilities and followship.

Marion said...

Perhaps my praying for YOU helps me. Ain't gonna stop and you can't make me! (Sticks tongue out)! xo :P I just won't tell you anymore. God loves us all. You may as well tell me to stop breathing. Shalom.

Snowbrush said...

"My conflicts with the religion continued into young adulthood until I realized these religions were fabrications of men"

Yes, "men" is the correct word alright except for Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Science), Amy Semple McPherson (Church of the Foursquare Gospel) and Ann Lee (Shakers). At least these are the only exceptions that come to mind. My conflict with religion never ended, the main reason being that I am emotionally unable to accept mortality, and am also emotionally unable to accept the fact that when bad things happen, there is no purpose behind them. It's also true that I genuinely enjoy studying religion and theology. I don't do it because there are other things that I also enjoy, things that I'm not so conflicted about--cats, for example. As I write this, I'm halfway listening to an interview with Michael Shermer, who is saying that 13% of Americans are now atheists (I don't know his source, but the number sounds too high), and that one-third of them believe in an afterlife, although they don't describe it in Christian terms but rather as a New Age/Buddhist reuniting with something akin to a universal force. He also mentioned the fact that three year olds talk about their dead pets "being" somewhere. So it is that our species, for whatever reason, is programmed to believe that there is SOMETHING after death, but this doesn't have to lead to Muslims shouting "Allah Akbar!" before exploding their suicide vests, or Church of Christ people smugly proclaiming that everyone who disagrees with them is going to hell. Obviously, there are some very good and very smart people who go to church, but it seems to me that if a person's only desire is to seek God, he or she doesn't need a church to do it, and might even be better off without a church because churches are founded upon the authority of what men (nearly always) have written about God, and why should they be believed, their only "evidence" being their personal guarantee that God spoke to them and told them what to tell the rest of us. But why should God rely upon someone else to tell you and me what he wants us to know when he could easily speak to every person in the world at the same time with no possibility of confusion? How strange it is that people are eager to sign on as followers of a Joseph Smith, or a Jim Jones, or a John Calvin. I wonder if the motivating instinct isn't tribalism rather than a love for God.

Snowbrush said...

"I knew at that point my entire family and every church member were in fact going to hell."

Where did you think you were going, and was it only their hypocrisy that made you fear for them? On the one hand, all members of the Christian religion claim that the Holy Spirit guides, strengthens, and comforts them, but on the other, many members of the Christian religion explain away their coldness, if not their hatred, toward others with bumper stickers that contain some variation of, "Imperfect but Forgiven." I should think that, if they're right about the Holy Spirit guiding them, this should enable them to serve as examples of goodness to people like you and me. After all, we're not demanding that they be perfect (although Christ commanded it); we simply want them to love us and to otherwise act as though they're serious about the values they claim to uphold even if they do sometimes fail. I can think of very few Christians by whom I felt loved once they knew I was an atheist, and all but one of them are people I know through blogging, most Christians having treated me as if I had a contagious skin disease. If I were to guess why this is so, I think that part of the reason is that I'm not so diplomatic in expressing my ideas as I wish I were (it goes beyond being a choice with me; it's a character flaw), but I think it's also true that my non-belief threatens their belief, my guess being that most Christians are only being able to maintain their belief by surrounding themselves with others who believe, and that means staying well away from people who not only don't believe, but who can offer rational challenges to belief.

"Perhaps my praying for YOU helps me."

I think it does. To the extent that prayer makes the prayer more loving, tolerant, and patient, I am a hearty supporter of prayer.

"Ain't gonna stop and you can't make me!"

I know you're halfway kidding with me, but I want to be sure that you took note of my statement: "I thank you for the love, and you have my blessing in praying for me all you want..." By the way, I mentioned Nolly Posh primarily because I regret how I behaved toward her. After all, she was dying (I just didn't expect it to happen so soon), and I wish I could go back and redo things because she had been very good to me, and our last little bit of time together was marred by what I said to her about prayer. You, I trust, are not dying, so it's not what I said to her that I regret by that I said it when I did. I love you too, by the way. It's not always easy for me--and I think you might say the same about your feelings for me--but I'm very much in sympathy with you, and I hope that by this time next year, you might feel as safe as any of us are able to feel in this life. To the extent that your religion helps you feel protected, I support your religion. Just so you'll know, it is never my desire to talk anyone out of their religion because unless they're using their religion to harm others, why should I want to--simply to win some sort of victory? Hardly. The fact is that I don't presume to know what's best for people when it comes to issues of religious belief, and it's only when they use their religion as a bludgeon that I care what they believe. The simple fact is that I enjoy talking about such things.

Snowbrush said...


"You may as well tell me to stop breathing."

If I were to pray, I would endeavor to avoid asking God for things. I would endeavor to center my prayer around my breathe. As I breathed, I would say to myself: "Breathe in God... Breathe out God. Breathe in God... Breathe out God." Etc.

I asked Kylie recently, but I haven't heard back yet (Kylie?), but I would also like to ask you if you're familiar with the words and anecdotes of the Desert Fathers, them being Christian hermits who predated monasticism, but who became so renowned for their righteousness that people came to live near them, thus giving birth to monasticism. Because they didn't promote mixing religion with politics, argue over what one must do to be saved, debate the correct method of baptism, and so forth, I treasure them. One memory about them that comes to mind is of one of them (I forget which one) saying, "I sold the book that said I should sell everything I owned and give the money to the poor." Now THAT is a religion that goes to my heart, a religion that I can respect, yet one that I could never come close to attaining. What is America's dominant form of religion today compared to that? As Thoreau wrote (and I paraphrase): Christianity is taught as if it were a superior form of agriculture. I think he had reference to using spirituality for physical advancement, what has since his time come to be called the "prosperity gospel," something which is taught in megachurches by ministers who live in mansions. Religion can be beautiful, but it is more often diseased.

PhilipH said...

Hi Snowy. People - most of them - have 'needed' God, a God, ever since the human race crawled out of the slime. Countless Gods have been created by men and most have been killed off, so to speak. Zeus is as dead as a doornail, if you get my drift.

This 'need' for some sort of religion and God is, in my view, due to the fear of death. AS a kid I used to cower under the kitchen table as the Blitz bombers, the V1 bombs and the V2 rockets would try to blast my home town of Croydon into oblivion. I used to pray like mad that none of these things would hit our house. Every night it was the same.

I been taught to pray. Thousands of boys and girls did the same. Hundreds were killed. I soon gave up praying. Stopped believing. It is all complete fantasy.

GOD IS MAN MADE. End of comment.

Snowbrush said...

"This 'need' for some sort of religion and God is, in my view, due to the fear of death..."

I know that this is true of me, but it doesn't explain religions that have no promise of an afterlife. For example, Buddhism's version of the afterlife is marked by a re-absorption into the universal consciousness, which is characterized by the complete loss of earthly identity. Then there's Judaism prior to Jesus. While there are verses in the Hebrew Bible that seem to suggest an afterlife, there are others (especially in Ecclesiastes) that say, in effect: when you're dead, you're dead. I suppose you've read Ecclesiastes, but if you haven't, you would probably enjoy it, and it wouldn't take you long at all to read it.

"Zeus is as dead as a doornail, if you get my drift."

I think your drift is that Zeus died at an unknown time and by unknown causes. I would just like to know why I'm always the last one to hear about such things. By the way, there are--and I'm serious--Internet groups that are devoted to the worship of pretty much any deity or family of deities that you can name. I had trouble believing that people really and truly believed in the actual existence of, for example, Zeus (since he's the one we're discussing), but I was quickly and bluntly informed that they did and that my attitude to the contrary was unwelcome.

"AS a kid I used to cower under the kitchen table as the Blitz bombers, the V1 bombs and the V2 rockets would try to blast my home town of Croydon into oblivion. I used to pray like mad that none of these things would hit our house. Every night it was the same."

Well, gosh darned, if the bombs fell every night; you prayed every night; and you continued to wake up every morning, doesn't that prove that prayers worked! Our mailman used to come everyday as Peggy and I were having breakfast in the living room on TV trays while our two dogs dozed on the floor. As soon as Bonnie and Baxter (the dogs) heard the mail drop through the slot, they would go ballistic and, of course, the mailman would move on down the street. Surely, it would have been reasonable for them to conclude that they had, yet again, succeeded in protecting their home, family, and property, from the same persistent intruder. In any event, they would look as though they were awfully pleased with themselves.

"GOD IS MAN MADE."

And in our image, of course, with him being a supposedly perfected version of ourselves, although when you look at the fact that the Biblical deity was jealous, easily angered, played favorites, demanded adoration, turned homicidal when he wasn't adored, killed people as casually as did the camp commandant in "Schlinder's List," held women as inferior to men (and non-Jews to Jews), and rewarded his followers with gifts of other people's lands and women; he seems a bit lacking on the perfect beings scale.

kylie said...

I did think I had replied with regards to the desert fathers, sorry about that. I had not heard of the desert fathers, specifically although I was aware of monks living in the desert.
When I was younger I heard of these monks and admired them for taking up such a life in the worship of their God. I admired them for willingly accepting the things I would not have wanted: asceticism, isolation, physical discomfort etc.

Then I read something that said these monks had misunderstood their religion and that they were wrong to isolate themselves, that they couldn't show Christ to others when they were secluded from those others.
Interestingly, the thing I read did nothing to enlighten me that these monks actually attracted people to them. Maybe the writer declined to mention that because they found the success of monasticism threatening.

I do think there is beauty in asceticism and in silence and I do think that we should be prepared to sell our bibles in order to feed the poor.

A few months back a lady came up to me at church and asked where she could buy a large print bible. I said I wasn't sure but that i would find out. I didn't know this woman but I could see that she was not doing well financially so I decided that rather than just refer her to a place to buy a bible I would buy it for her. And I did. People told me I couldn't afford to but it and I suppose I couldn't but I expected that surely God couldn't allow me to suffer for giving a gift like that. The bible was delayed in the post and then the man it was intended for (the woman's uncle) passed away only a month after receiving it. I wonder why he only got to have it for a month and I wonder where it is now. It was an odd kind of happening but I have not missed the money it cost me and I wonder why a Christian person would discourage another from doing such a thing.

I'm not sure if I am answering your question but those are my thoughts on the matter, shallow they may be.

kylie said...

Also, if I remember rightly, Nolly Posh had breast cancer? You couldn't have known she would die so soon. We get this picture of cancer patients having long and drawn out deaths with plenty of time to tie up loose ends but it doesn't always work like that. I'm sorry you have regrets around that situation but I don't think she would be holding it against you.

rhymeswithplague said...

I thought of two other women to add to your list of exceptions: Ellen G. White (Seventh-Day Adventists) and Madame Helena Blavatsky (Theosophy). There may be others.

Sue in Italia/In the Land Of Cancer said...

An interesting, thoughtful post. I am so sorry for the fear that you grew up with. I experienced some of that myself though I went to a Presbyterian church which was not so fire and brimstone. I seemed to be the only one who paid attention in Sunday school. Were the others so secure in the knowledge that they would be saved they didn't have to pay attention? I was forever missing the point of parables such as the 10 bridesmaids (five foolish; five wise) and how the foolish wasted their oil waiting for their groom and the wiseones refused to share. Aren't they supposed to share. I was confused. And why did God get suckered into a bet with the devil about Job. One of the first plagues was Job's kids killed just so God could win a bet with the devil. I went to the minister with all my doubts. Although he was very nice, he patronized me and told me I was too young to understand. At that point I decided the whole shebang was just a pack of cards and quit going.

Now Pence is saying no-one needs healthcare, what they need is Jesus. Scary times.

Snowbrush said...

"Then I read something that said these monks had misunderstood their religion and that they were wrong to isolate themselves, that they couldn't show Christ to others when they were secluded from those others."

I doubt that you meant it as I took it, but you would appear (to me) to imply that you believed it because you read it. I would just say three things. One is that the Catholic Church, at least, believes that cloistered prayer can accomplish a great deal of good, so it comes down to whether believes that prayer alone (apart from worldly works) can make a difference. The second thing is that droves of people followed the monks to the desert to learn from them (and to build the monastic movement around them), so although they had craved solitude, they had a hell of time finding it. The third thing is that after 1,700 years, these men and women still provide inspiration even to people like I who have no use for the Sinclair Lewis's of the world. How long do you think the person you read will continue to inspire even if he or she has anything to inspire with? I think of him or her as like Rupert Murdock criticizing Shakespeare, or like a gnat criticizing a lion.

"I went to a Presbyterian church which was not so fire and brimstone."

You missed the days when it actually believed in the "Five Points of Calvinism." I plead with you to read Margaret Deland's book "John Ward, Preacher." I would suggest that you look for an old hardcover copy rather than a modern xeroxed paperback.

Kylie, yes, Nollyposh had breast cancer. No, I don't consider your thoughts shallow (or your intelligence deficient), yet I can't imagine how you believe the way you do. For instance, "I expected that surely God couldn't allow me to suffer for giving a gift like that." God allows kittens to starve to death and children to be raped (and starved, and blown up by land mines from the War in Vietnam), and on and on and on, so why on earth do you think he will protect you? I simply don't get it, yet I wish I did, and that I could live with such confidence as you possess. I know you will call your view faith, but how do you distinguish between faith and self-interest--or do you? After all, you gave to the woman thinking that God would reward you for it, or at least not allow you to suffer more than you already do. I try to criticize your views rationally, yet I think our difference goes beyond rationality. I literally believe that our brains are wired differently, and that with the additional or subtraction of this, that, or the other, you would be an atheist, and I would be a believer. Studies have been done regarding the effect of Parkinson's on religious faith, and while they're not conclusive, it is surely thinkable that brain chemistry is what makes you and me different. After all, we have the same facts before us, so if it were merely a matter of evidence, would we not agree?

Snowbrush said...

"I thought of two other women to add to your list of exceptions: Ellen G. White (Seventh-Day Adventists) and Madame Helena Blavatsky (Theosophy). There may be others."

Sarah Palin, perhaps? Let's wrack our brains and check back later.